Tuesday, February 5, 2008

Messianic Musings

Friends, I proudly state that I am a Messianic Jew. In fact, it is one of the Thirteen Principles of Judaism: "I believe in perfect faith in the coming of the Moshiach, and even though he may tarry, I await his coming ever day." I also know that the Moshiach has not arrived yet and the many pretenders to this claim have all failed or not fulfilled the requirements of the Moshiachood. It's important in these discussions to clarify what the Jewish belief in Moshiach is. After all, the Jews were the ones to whom the concept of Moshiach was originally given, at a time when the rest of the world was praying to sticks and stones. It goes without saying that the Jewish people possess the true knowledge of the Moshiach as opposed to descendants of pagans.

What is the moshiach? The Jewish tradition of "The Moshiach" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Moshiach" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah". The criteria are:

- He must be Jewish- "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)

- He must be a member of the tribe of Judah- "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)

- He must be a descendant of King David and King Solomon- "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)

- He will redeem the Jewish people and ingather the exiles -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

- He will rebuild the Beit HaMikdash, the Holy Temple, in Jerusalem- "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

- He will bring world peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

- He will bring the Jewish people back to perfect observance of the Torah - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

- He will spread the rule of G-d and belief in Him around the world, to all peoples - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

Judge for yourself: Has any man fulfilled all of these requirements? Keep in mind that the Torah says that the Moshiach will accomplish his task in one try. The Moshiach "shall not fail nor be crushed, till he have set the right in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his teaching" (Isaiah 42:4).

When will Moshiach Tzidkeinu (the Righteous Moshiach) appear? "Today, if you hearken unto His voice!" (Psalm 95:7). He can come today or tomorrow, and every righteous act, mitzvah or good deed accomplished brings his coming closer. Isaiah (60:22) says about G-d, "in its appointed time, I will hasten it". The Rabbis asked how could it be possible for HaShem to hasten the coming of the Moshiach, since he would no longer appear in his appointed time. They resolved this difficulty by saying that if Israel does teshuva and the world is worthy, the Moshiach will come via signs and wonders, miracles and great things, immediately, and if we are not worthy, he will come in his appointed time, through natural means.

How will we recognize the Moshiach? The Rambam in his Hilchot Melachim (11:4) writes:

If a king will arise from the House of David, who, like David his ancestor, delves deeply into the study of the Torah and engages in the mitzvos as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law; if he will compel all of Israel to walk in [the way of the Torah] and repair the breaches [in its observance]; and if he will fight the wars of G‑d; - we may, with assurance, consider him Moshiach.

If he succeeds in the above, defeats all the nations around him, builds the [Beis Ha]Mikdash on its site, and gathers in the dispersed remnant of Israel, he is definitely the Moshiach.[3]

He will perfect the entire world, [motivating all the na­tions] to serve G‑d together, as it is written (Zephaniah 3:9), "For I shall then make the peoples pure of speech so that they will all call upon the Name of G‑d and serve Him with one purpose."

What will life be like? Again, we turn to the Rambam's Hilchot Melachim (12:4-5)

The Sages and prophets did not yearn for the Messianic Era in order that [the Jewish people] rule over the entire world, nor in order that they have dominion over the gentiles, nor that they be exalted by them, nor in order that they eat, drink and celebrate. Rather, their aspiration was that [the Jewish people] be free [to involve themselves] in the Torah and its wisdom, without anyone to oppress or disturb them, and thus be found worthy of life in the World to Come, as we explained in Laws of Repentance (9:2).

In that Era there will be neither famine nor war, neither envy nor competition, for good things will flow in abundance and all the delicacies will be as freely available as dust. The occupation of the entire world will be solely to know G‑d. The Jews will therefore be great sages and know the hidden mat­ters, and will attain an understanding of their Creator to the [full] extent of mortal potential; as it is written (Isaiah 11:9), "For the world will be filled with the knowledge of G‑d as the waters cover the ocean bed."

May HaShem send His righteous Moshiach speedily in our days. Amen, ken yehi ratzon.


Big Daddy Jew said...

BK, would you agree that the Tanakh is true and accurate? Of course you do! You would then agree that the prophet Daniel, when he received his revelation from God that the messiah would appear BEFORE the destruction of the Second Temple wasn't joking or pulling our leg...right?

If our Messianic timeline says that Messiah was to have appeared before the destruction of the Second Temple, then who was he? Was it Hillel? Gamaliel? They were contemporaries of the time...who was it? I'm dying to know...nobody in all of history, besides Moshe, has ever come close to fulfilling the Messianic requirements. Only one did...

Avi said...

Christian commentators prefer to start the Seventy Weeks countdown with 444 or 445 B.C.E. because it brings their calculations closer to the time period in which Jesus died (30/33 C.E.). A far better starting date is the decree of Cyrus (537 B.C.E) upon which all subsequent grants of approval were based (Isaiah 44:28). A correct reading of the passage and some simple arithmetic dispels any attempt to claim 444 B.C.E. as a starting date and Jesus' death in 30/33 C.E. as a terminus.

First, the seven weeks and the sixty-two weeks are really two separate periods and speak of two separate "anointed" ones. Second, even if we were to count 483 years from 444 B.C.E. we get to the year 38 C.E. Jesus is crucified in the period ranging from 30 to 33 C.E. But, the text of Daniel 9:26 says, "And after the sixty-two weeks an anointed one shall be cut off." This shows that if we use 444 B.C.E. as a starting date the alleged second "anointed one" was "cut off" in the period following the year 38 C.E. (that is, "after the sixty-two weeks"). There would be no connection to anyone "cut off" prior to that year. Thus, there is no reference here to Jesus.

Christians mistakenly translate the annointed one spoken of (moshiach) as the Moshiach, rather than as its correct meaning, someone who has been annointed, which really refers to Cyrus. It is Isaiah who proclaims that Cyrus would give the actual command to rebuild Jerusalem. God declares through the prophet, "He [Cyrus] shall build My city" (Isaiah 45:13; see also Ezra 1:1-8, 6:1-5). Indeed, it was Cyrus who issued a proclamation (ca. 537 B.C.E.) for the return, and for the rebuilding to start. This occurred forty-nine years after the destruction of Jerusalem. God declares concerning Cyrus, "He is My shepherd, and shall perform all My pleasures; even saying of Jerusalem: 'She shall be built'; and to the Temple: 'Your foundation shall be laid'" (Isaiah 44:28). Hence, the Scriptures teach that it was during the reign of Cyrus that the rebuilding of the city began. This was symbolized, first of all, by the start of construction on the Second Temple, which was completed ca. 516 B.C.E., seventy years after the destruction. It is with the completion of the Temple that the period of desolation officially terminates.

Isaiah 45:1 describes Cyrus as God's "anointed. His decree to rebuild Jerusalem comes forty-nine years after the destruction of the city and the Temple, which is the time when an "anointed one" (Daniel 9:25) is to come to fulfill the prophecy, ". . . until an anointed one, a prince, shall be seven weeks [forty-nine years]."

When all is said and done, the biblical record must speak for itself. That record shows that it was Cyrus (Isaiah 45:13), who is given credit by God for the rebuilding of Jerusalem. As we have seen, the initial effort to rebuild was a direct result of Cyrus'decree. All subsequent permits were based on this decree.

The first seven weeks ends in 537 B.C.E. The second segment of the Seventy Weeks period, sixty-two weeks in length, covered by verse 26, culminates in 103 B.C.E. (586-49-434=103 B.C.E.). Verse 26 indicates that "after sixty-two weeks an anointed one shall be cut off." This "anointed one" is the High Priest Alexander Yannai (103-76 B.C.E.) who came to power just at the end of the sixty-two week period in 103 B.C.E. and was the last of the important Hasmonean leaders. The phrase "after sixty-two weeks" indicates the time frame during which the "anointed one shall be cut off," that is, suffer karet, "excision." The penalty accompanying karet is here aptly described as "to have nothing," or "be no more." This punishment is given to Alexander Yannai infamous for his unjust, tyrannical, and bloody rule. He is notorious for his open violent animosity against the Pharisees and his brazen rejection of the Oral Law. For example, Josephus records that Alexander Yannai fought against the Pharisees for six years, "and . . . slew no fewer than fifty thousand of them" (Jewish Antiquities XIII. 13. 5. [373]). He also "ordered some eight hundred of the Jews to be crucified, and slaughtered their children and wives before the eyes of the still living wretches" (Jewish Antiquities XIII. 14. 2. [380]).

Verse 26 shows when Alexander Yannai, the "anointed one," would assume power and what kind of punishment would be meted out to him for his transgressions against God.

Another huge difficulty for Christians is that they claim that the 70th week will occur when Jesus will return in his second coming. Christians claim that the first 69 weeks were consecutive but that the next verse, the last week, is to be fulfilled 1900+ years later. This is obviously a forced explanation born of desparation.

Avi said...

Despite all of this, did JC fulfill all of the requirements that I posted? He was not a member of the tribe of Judah since he had no biological father, was not a descendant of David through Solomon since one geneology states that he is a descendant of Jeconiah who was cursed never again to have a child who would sit on the throne of Israel, and the other one is through Nathan, and obviously he did not bring world peace, ingather the exiles, rebuild the Temple, strengthen the Torah or bring the world to worship of HaShem. Ironically, he did the absolute opposite since shortly after him Israel was exiled, the Temple destroyed, the Church was very opposed to the active return to Zion, his followers have spilled more Jeiwsh blood than anybody else, Christianity discourages observance of the mitzvot and there are still billions of people who worship idols like Hindus and Buddhists. And the Second Coming is a forced answer as JC said that he would return before his generation would die. There is not ONE Scriptual support for the ridiculous idea of the Second Coming (and how do you know that he will get it all done the second time as opposed to a Third or maybe even Fourth Coming?)

Rita Loca said...

You had to put up the cheese...

Avi said...

I found it amusing. I take it that you didn't??

Do you have anything to add JM? I would love to hear your two cents.

Big Daddy Jew said...

Yes, yes...I am familiar with these arguments. In fact, I conclusively settled the issue surrounding Jeconiah, showing that the curse was reversed through repentance. I promise to address all of these other arguments in due time.

As for the 70 weeks calculations, I don;t have time to dispute it, but respectfully, I think you have it wrong.

Big Daddy Jew said...

I settled the Jeconiah argument in email with you a month ago...I meant to include that in my post above...sorry.

Avi said...

BDJ: A cop-out for the 70 weeks.

From Messiah Truth:

Different Christians have shown a great deal of savvy in trying to deflect attention away from the two gaping problems listed above. None of their solutions, however, hold water. Here are some samples:

1) The virgin birth prevents Joseph from passing on his cursed lineage to Jesus, thereby allowing Jesus to sit on the throne. This is the answer proposed by apologists like Josh McDowell. Because the virgin birth undermines the notion of Jesus being the Messiah, one is forced to consider this as if Joseph passed on the genealogy through rights of adoption, even though such rights do not exist.

2) The claim is made that the curse was not to be taken literally. The beginning of Jeremiah 22:30 reads "Write ye this man childless, a man [that] shall not prosper in his days..." From this they point to the fact that Jeconiah did know prosperity, and that he did indeed have children, so that means G-d didn’t mean the curse to be as devastating as it actually is. This is pointing away from the end of verse 30. "For no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah." This portion of the verse makes it clear what was meant. Jeconiah did indeed have children, but those children would be forbidden from sitting on the throne. "Write ye this man childless" is simply a metaphor here.

3) The claim is made that the curse was annulled by G-d. Christians refer to the following passage:

Haggai 2:23 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts. (KJV)
G-d used the same term with Zerubbabel, a descendant of Jeconiah, that He used with Jeconiah, a "signet ring." Christians conclude from this that the curse was annulled. However, a closer examination will reveal that this is certainly not the case. The curse begins with an oath. "As I live, saith the LORD." How does the Lord live? He lives eternally. G-d did indeed show favor to Zerubbabel, and might even have instated Zerubbabel as king, if not for the curse the Almighty placed on Jeconiah. The Almighty took oaths. Are we to believe that the Almighty would revoke His oaths? The problem with this is twofold.

a. If the virgin birth is true (which is less likely than I can adequately describe, given that a mistranslated prophecy was taken out of context to "prove" it) that would mean that G-d took the throne away from David’s house, which would mean G-d violated an oath.

b. The curse of Jeconiah taints Joseph’s line, so that if you theorize adoption (which is without scriptural backing or precedent) you trace Joseph back to Jeconiah, cursed by G-d under another of G-d’s oaths.
4) Another Christian proposed a solution to this problem along the lines of "Don’t you think G-d would have it in His heart to show mercy to Jeconiah’s line?" My answer is two-fold: a) NO, it was a curse, and we see that it was eternal by the fact that none of Jeconiah’s descendants sat on the throne. b) If you theorize that G-d showed mercy provide your evidence within the text. The needs of Christian theology predicate this solution, rather than the facts.

5) Christians believe they have found the answer to this problem with the following: In chapter three of the Gospel of Luke, we see a genealogy of Jesus which lacks Jeconiah in the listing. Strangely enough, this genealogy is attributed to Joseph as well. Apologists have asserted that this is the genealogy of Mary. They claim that it is through Mary’s line that Jesus is linked to David, and thus the virgin birth problem and the Jeconiah problem are solved, right?

Wrong. Let us explain why this is not a viable solution:

1) The genealogy in Luke’s Gospel specifically says Joseph, not Mary.

2) The genealogy of Mary is completely irrelevant, as lineage is through the father, not the mother.

3) Luke made a critical gaff in his genealogical listing. The listing doesn’t include King Solomon:
Luke 3:31 Which was [the son] of Melea, which was [the son] of Menan, which was [the son] of Mattatha, which was [the son] of Nathan, which was [the son] of David, (KJV)
Luke’s listing proclaims Jesus the descendant of Nathan, not Solomon, making Luke’s genealogy a disqualifying factor as well. (See 1 Chronicles 22 excerpt above) BOTH genealogies we find in the New Testament Jesus from being the Messiah.

1 Timothy 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do]. (KJV)
Why is this verse here, if not to get people to point away from the fairly obvious problems the gospels contain?

In Summation:
1) If the virgin birth is true (which is highly unlikely since it goes against the grain of supporting Jesus’ messianic claim) then Jesus cannot be the Messiah.

2) If you trace Jesus' line through Joseph (by which you claim Jesus inherits the throne by adoption) in Matthew's genealogy, then you run into the curse of Jeconiah, and Jesus cannot be the Messiah.

3) If you trace Jesus’ line through Luke's genealogy (regardless of whether you attribute it to Joseph or Mary) Jesus cannot be the Messiah because it doesn't include King Solomon; it includes his brother, Nathan, eliminating any legitimate claim to the throne.

Jesus' genealogy, as we have it in the Christian Scriptures, does not allow him to be the Messiah. This point cannot be stressed strongly enough. No other "prophecies" one thinks Jesus fulfilled are relevant without this crucial brick in the wall.

Anonymous said...

Big Daddy: Simple question: do you live in Israel?

Avi said...

Eitan: I'm having such a good time with him. Typical Christian arguments based on emotion and not logic or Torah. The gist of it it: Satan has blinded you to JC so pray and then once you've already accepted him, all of the proof-texts will point to himn (dur...). No wonder Christians haven't succeeded in convincing us for 2000+ years.

Big Daddy Jew said...

According to Matthew 1:12, Yeshua's genealogy is traced through Jeconiah, (nickname for Jehoiachin). He was the son of Jehoiakim and the grandson of Josiah, reigning for just three months before being exiled by king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, (see 2 Kings 24:6-17). Of him it was said by the Lord, "Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, nor none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah." (Jer. 22:30). How then could Messiah be traced through his lineage? According to John McTernan and Lou Ruggiero, "The messianic line runs from David to Solomon to Rehoboam to Jeconiah, to Zerubbabel to the Messiah. There is no place in the Bible which shows the curse on the kingly line has been lifted. Because of the curse, anyone born of a human father and [sic] claims to be the Messiah will have the curse of Jeconiah to block such a claim. The Messiah of Israel cannot have a human father." Of course, I fully affirm the supernatural, virginal conception of the Messiah, as this helps explain how the Messiah can be both earthly and heavenly, the son of David, yet David's lord. In terms of the curse on Jehoiachin, however, there is no need to point to the necessity of the virgin birth since: (1) there is, in fact, solid scriptural evidence that the curse was reversed; and (2) the curse may only have applied primarily to Jehoiachin's immediate descendants. Let's take a look at the passage in Jer 22 in greater depth.

As noted by Dr. Michael Brown in his commentary on Jeremiah concerning Jehoiachin:

A command is given (v.30) in the pl. (kitbu, write!) to record that he will be 'ariri, childless (see Gen 15:2, and note esp. Lev 20:20-21, where being 'ariri is a curse for an unauthorized union), yet v. 28 spoke of his offspring while 1Ch 3:16-17 states that he had 7 sons. The explanation for this is found in the rest of v.30, which should be understood in light of the presumed ardent hope and desire of the people of Judah-in their land and in exile-that this son of David, or one of his sons, would be restored to the throne. God says it will not happen, the emphasis being on, "his lifetime" (in which he'll not succeed) and the lifetimes of his sons, none of whom would reign on the throne, making it as if he were childless. In keeping with this the divine promises to the line of David are not renewed until the days of Zerubbabel, his grandson (see Hag 2:20-23, and ...Jer 52:31-34).

Note further the comment of evangelical scholar Walter Kaiser Jr., who observes,

According to 1Ch 3:16-17, Jehoiachin had seven descendants. These, however, were hauled off into Babylon and there, according to an archaeological finding on a Babylonian tablet in the famous Ishtar Gate, all seven were made eunuchs. In this manner, Jehoiachin became "as if childless," as no man of his seed prospered, nor did any sit on the throne.

Similarly, Jeremiah commentator John Bright explains, "The figure is that of a census list. Jehoiachin is to be entered as childless since, as far as throne succession was concerned, he was as good as that."

You might wonder, "Is it really that simple? Is this whole thing of a lasting curse on Jehoiachin's descendants an exaggaration?" Let's take a look at Jer 36:30, a passage that's rarely cited in these discussions, but one that is quite relevant, since in Jer 36:30, it is prophesied of Jehoiakim-the father of Jehoiachin!-that, "He will have no one to sit on the throne of David." But his son, Jehoiachin did sit on David's throne, reigning for three months and still this prophesy is still recorded as true. What the, did this prophesy mean? It certainly did not mean that there was a curse on all of Jehoiakim's future descendants, nor did it mean that none of his sons would sit on the throne at all. Rather, the fact that Jehoiachin did sit on David's throne for three months meant that any reign of any of Jehoiakim's sons would be fleeting at best, completely devoid of the blessings of God. Yet the language of Jer 36:30 is very similar to the language of Jer 22:30. On what basis do we press the meaning of the latter so far beyond the meaning of the former? And on what basis do we make the pronouncement against Jehoiachin one that would last for all time when the context points primarily to a curse on his immediate offspring?

In reality, however, we don't even need to debate these points at all, since the Tanakh gives two important pieces of evidence that point to: (1) Jehoiachin's repentance and (2) the subsequent removal of any generational curse.

The first piece of evidence is found in Jer 52:31-34 which describes the special favor that was shown to Jehoiachin after decades in prison in exile:

In the thirty-seventh year of the exile of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the year Evil-Merodach became king of Babylon, he released Jehoiachin king of Judah and freed him from prison on the twenty-fifth day of the twelfth month. He spoke kindly to him and gave him a seat of honor higher than those of the other kings who were with him in Babylon. So Jehoiachin put aside his prison clothes and for the rest of his life ate regularly at the king's table. Day by day the king of Babylon gave Jehoiachin a regular allowance as long as he lived, till the day of his death.

In light of the divine fury directed against Jehoiachin in Jeremiah 22:24-29, this reversal of circumstances is quite striking, suggesting a change of heart in the king. For the Talmudic rabbis and their successors, there was little doubt: Jehoiachin had repented! Further, explicit evidence was provided in Haggai 2:20-23, speaking of Zerubbabel, the grandson of Jehoiachin, who became the governor of Judah after the return from the exile:

The word of the Lord came to Haggai a second time on the twenty-fourth day of the month: "Tell Zerubbabel governor of Judah that I will shake the heavens and the earth. I will overturn royal thrones and shatter the power of the foreign kingdoms. I will overthrow chariots and their drivers; horses and their riders will fall, each by the sword of their brother.

'On that day,' declares the Lord Almighty, 'I will take you, my servant Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel,' declares the Lord, 'and I will make you like my signet ring, for I have chosen you,' declares the Lord Almighty.

Note carefully these words in Haggai 2:23: "'I will take you my servant Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel,' declares the Lord, 'and I will make you like my signet ring, for I have chosen you,' declares the Lord Almighty.'" Now compare this promise with threat against Jehoiachin in Jer 22:24: "'As surely as I live, '" declares the Lord, 'even if you, Jehoiachin son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, were a signet ring on my right hand, I would still pull you off.'" Do you see it? The Lord told Jehoiachin that even if he were close to God and as personal to him as the signet ring on his own hand, he would be cast off-and he was. Two generations later, the Lord tells his grandson, "I will make you like my signet ring, because I have chosen you." Without a doubt, the curse was reversed and favor was restored.

Based on these texts, Rabbinic literature is filled with references to Jehoiachin's repentence and his subsequent restoration, the final evidence being the promise to his grandson Zerubbabel. See, for example, the commentary of Radak to Jer 22:30, who follows the Talmud and midrashic writings in using this example to extol the power of repentance, namely, "Great is the power of repentance, which can nullify a decree and nullify an oath." (see also b. R.H.17b, for further statements on the power of repentance; see also the comments of Shelah; cf. also t. Niddah 70b; see further Netivot Olam b, 163; Hiddushei Aggadot, 1:118). There are actually many statements in the Rabbinic writings that speak of Jehoiachin's repentance and the reversal of any curse, as illustrated by this lengthy citation from Pesikta deRav Kahana 24:11.

I accepted the repentance of Jeconiah: shall I not accept your repentance? A cruel decree has been imposed upon Jeconiah: Scripture says, This man Coniah is a despised, shattered image (Jer 22:28), for Jeconiah, according to R. Abba bar Kahana, was like a man's skull which once shattered is utterly useless, or, according to R. Helbo, like a wrapper of reed matting that dates are packed in, which, once emptied, is utterly useless. And scripture goes on to say of Jeconiah: He is a vessel that none reaches for with delight (ibid.), a vessel, said R. Hama bar R. Hanina, such as a urinal; or a vessel, said R. Samuel bar Nahman, such as is used for drawing off blood. [These comments on Jeconiah derive from] R. Meir's statement: The Holy One swore that He would raise up no king out of Jeconiah the king of Judah. Thus Scripture: As I live, saith the Lord, though Coniah son of Jehoiakim...were the signet on a hand, yet by My right, I would pluck thee hence (Jer 22:24), words by which God was saying, explained R. Hanina bar R. Isaac, "Beginning with thee, Jeconiah, I pluck out the kingship of the house of David." It is to be noted, however, that the Hebrew for "pluck thee"is not as one would expect, 'tkk, but the fuller and less usual 'tknk, which may also be rendered "mend thee"-that is mend thee by thy repentance. Thus in the very place, [the kingship], whence Jeconiah was plucked, amends would be made to him: [his line would be renewed].

R. Ze'era said: I heard the voice of R. Samuel bar Isaac expounding from the teacher's chair a specific point concerning Jeconiah, but I just cannot remember what it was. R. Aha Arila asked: Did it perhaps have some connection with this particular verse-Thus saith the Lord: Write ye this man childless, a man [who] will not prosper in his days(Jer 22:30)? "Yes, that's it!" said R. Ze'era. Thereupon R. Aha Arila went on to give R. Samuel bar Isaac's interpretation of the verse: In his days Jeconiah, so long as he is childless, will not prosper, but when he has a son, then he will prosper by his son's prosperity.

R. Aha bar Abun bar Benjamin, citing R. Abba bar R. Papi, said: Great is the power of repentance, which led God to set aside an oath even as it led Him to set aside a decree. Whence the proof that a man's repentance led Him to set aside the oath He made in the verse As I live, saith the Lord, though Coniah son of Jehoiakim were the signet on a hand, yet by My right, I would pluck thee hence (Jer 22:24)? The proof is in the verse where Scripture says [of one of Jeconiah's descendants] In that day, saith the Lord of Hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel...the son of Shealtiel...and will make thee as a signet (Haggai 2:23). And the proof that a man's repentance led God to set aside a decree He issued in the verse Thus saith the Lord, write this man childless, etc. (Jer 22:30)? The proof is in the verse where Scripture says The sons of Jeconiah-the same is Asir-Shealtiel his son, etc. (1Ch 3:17) R. Tanhum bar Jeremiah said: Jeconiah was called Asir, "one imprisoned, " because he had been in prison ('asurim); and his son called "Shealtiel" because he was like a sapling, newly set out (hustelah), through whom David's line would be continued. R. Tanhuma said: Jeconiah was called Asir, "imprisoned," because God imprisoned Himself by His oath in regard to him; and Jeconiah's son was called Shealtiel, "God consulted," because God consulted the heavenly court, and they released Him from His oath.

So, this Rabbinic text-in homiletical, not literal fashion, based on a statement in the Talmud in b. Sanh 38a-goes so far as to claim that God asked the heavenly court to release Him from His oath against Jehoiachin! That's how firmly entrenched this king's repentance was in the minds of the rabbis. More importantly, there is explicit scriptural support for the position that any curse against Jehoiachin's posterity was lifted, as the Messianic promises are renewed in his grandson, Zerubbabel. It is therefore only fitting that the Messiah's genealogy be traced through Jehoiachin.

There is, however; one final question that needs to be asked, and this one is for the anti-missionaries, since they commonly cite the curse on Jehoiachin as proof that Yeshua could not be the Messiah. The argument of Jews For Judaism, (which I read last night), is typical: "Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor." My question then, is this: Are these anti-missionaries unfamiliar with all the ancient Rabbinic traditions that state that the curse was reversed? That would be hard to imagine, since these Rabbinic texts are quite well known and some of the anti-missionaries are educated rabbis. Why then, do they advance an argument that flies n the face of Rabbinic tradition? That would be like a Christian advancing an argument that contradicted the B'rit Chadashah. Could it be that it is quite hypocritical for some anti-missionaries to raise the charge of deception or dishonesty against Messianic Jews when, in reality, this is a charge by which they should examine themselves? After all, if an organization is called Jews For Judaism, shouldn't it be expected to represent the position of Traditional Judaism rather than attempt to refute the Christian position by any and all means? As a lover of the truth, BK, this is certainly something to consider.

Rita Loca said...

Bar, I see no point to add anything. BDJ is doing just fine. And, no, I do not find your cheese to be amusing. I am not offended, it just seems childish.

Anonymous said...

jungle mom: "he's doing fine..." No, I'm afraid he isn't getting anywhere. You see, the sole purpose of Jews who've sold their soul and what their ancestors wouldn't ever sell to Jesus, is to convert more Jews. Most of the Jews whom they convert(scratch that...ALL Jews they convert) know next to zero about Judaism. Either that of they see some economic benefit in converting and selling out the religion of their forfathers.

Big Daddy here ain't a-gonna prove a thang simply because Bar is a talmid hacham and has ample info. at his disposal.

May all Messianic Jews be banished from eretz Yisrael.

Amen sela.

Avi said...

JM: Come on... Whatever. In reality, I find it childish for Christians to pretend to know the Torah better than Jews. After all, the ancestors of today's Christians were worshipping sticks and stones, indulging in ritualistic orgies or burning their children in reverence of idols, at the time when the Jews were given the Torah (along with the concept of moshiach) from HaShem Himself, through Moses. It seems unlikely that all of the rabbis and the entire Jewish people, who have studied the Torah for over 3500 years, are in error while the pagans were able to see the truth. G-d sure does work in mysterious ways.

BD"J": Here are some problems with your explanation:

1) This is a HUGE one which has never been properly addressed. Since JC was born of a virgin and had no earthly father, he has no claim to the throne of David and Solomon.

2) The explanations that you present are interesting in terms of modern Evangelical Christianity yet they are worlds away from the early Christians. The early Christians obviously did not have the benefit of "Dr." Brown or the Talmud and had no access to thse Jewish texts (which were not even committed to writting yet). Christians until recently have not explained the curse in terms of Jewish tradition but rather by way of deception or apologetics. This is proof that the Christian Bible authors were painfully ingorant of Jewish texts.

3) Your argument is fatally flawed. A fundamental Christian claim, which you reiterated on your site, is that one must accept JC today for repentance and atonement, in lieu of sacrifices and the Temple. However, if you accept this argument, HaShem forgave Jehoakin without blood, without offering and without atonement, outside of Israel. In that sense, why would one need JC if G-d accepts sincere repentance without sacrifices, as the Torah say? This is a deathblow to Christianity because by accepting it, their theology dissolves since JC is redundant but without it, he is not qualified to rule. Catch-22.

Rita Loca said...

You are correct about my ancestors. I am eternally grateful to G-d that He used His people to proclaim His love for us mere gentiles.
I do not wish to inject myself or opinions here as I see it as a discussion between Jews.

Anonymous said...

Jungle Mom: you shouldn't feel intimidated or unwanted because you're not Jewish. Big Daddy isn't either and he's rambling on...

Anonymous said...

Jungle Mom: "mere gentiles" why are you putting yourself down? To be sure, I as a Jew, don't see it that way. Now if you are Jewish and convert that's a whole different story.

Papa Frank said...

Why the hate eitan? Don't hate Big Daddy because his views differ from yours. Why do you choose to throw away your fellow Jew like garbage because of his opinions of the Torah and Talmud?

Big Daddy Jew said...

Eitan, shalom achi. I don't know why you would resort to personal attacks. I haven't attacked you or your views. We are both Jewish, born of Jewish parents. (At least I assume that of you, or you completed conversion. Regardless, I assume us to be "equally Jewish"). Like I mentioned to BK, please keep our discussion in the arena of scholastic debate, not personal attacks. They aren't helpful, nor are they productive.

BK, you haven't addressed my response regarding Jeconiah. I've noticed that when you have nowhere to go with a question or a response, you redirect somewhere else. So now we're talking about geneology, and you try to overwhelm me with arguments. It's ok. If we take each issue one at a time, addressing each other's points, it'll work well and it'll be easier for us to process information. Right now, I want to study out your rendering of the Daniel prophecy. Have a good night, BK.
Shalom, Eitan.

Avi said...

Yes I did answer you. I said that the early Christians had no idea what Jewish texts had to say so using the Talmud doesn't count. And if you do use the Talmud to agree that Jeconiah's teshuva was complete, then you must accept that one needs only sincere remorse to do teshuva, without blood and sacrifice, and as such JC becomes redundant.

Anonymous said...

Jason: generations of Jews have been persecuted for the sole reason of theirs being Jewish. They went through fire and water(literally) and still remained Jewish because a Jew who converts is a Jew lost to the Jewish people. I have no problem with Christians. I consider you guys my friends, as I do some Muslims. But a Jew who converts to any other religion has comitted a grave crime against my people.

Big Daddy: I will continue attacking you personally. I consider you a traitor who's lost, spiritually and physically to my people. Because of you there's one Jew less in the world. There aren't too many Jews left in the world, achoti, and I hope that for the sake of Israel, my boys @ Ezra le'achim get to you and you are expelled from Israel. Hashem yishmor there should be future conversions because of your ilk.

Avi said...

Eitan: My thoughts exactly. Thanks for expressing my exact feelings perfectly.

You must know however that Satan has blinded our eyes to the truth (after all, he is our father according to Revelations) and BDJ has been granted clarity from JC. Now, its his obligation to save us wicked C-killers from the eternal flames of hell. “The Jews, who both killed the Lord J and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God and are contrary to all men: forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.” (l Thessalonians 2.14-16)

I pray that you return to your people. Nonetheless, if you persist in idolatry, you are the one who is losing. You are cut off from your people. The Nation of Israel will live forever- you will not.

Papa Frank said...

I believe the words that God Himself used in the Torah to describe His people were "stiff-necked and proud." This has been their downfall for way too long and the exact reason that a saviour was needed. I do not condemn you guys but search the Torah carefully and see if these words do not apply to yourselves. Belief in the Messiah does not make someone not a Jew. Do not throw away your own Jewish brother like garbage.

Anonymous said...

Shimshi: it amazes me how some Jews would swallow the messianic crap whole. You know my story: I grew up in Soviet Russia believing G-d was a fairy tale thought up by the burgouise to entise the masses and yet had I remained ignorant(Hashem yishmor) I don't think I would havd ever converted. For that matter, an entire generation of Russian Jews grew up under Communist/anti-religious influence. Many inter-married but as far as I know relatively few converted.

And now, when the choice is ours, when we're free to be "a free people in our land" there are these traitors...makes me sick!

Avi said...

Christians don't understand the issues of contemporay Jewish life. Messianic "Jews" are not just another bunch of eccentric Jews who make up the wonderful diverse mosaic of Jewry. All Jews are unanimous, from the most ultra-orthodox chareidim to the most liberal Reform Jews that a Jew who believes in JC is not a Jew, just like a Christian who believes in Buddha is not a Christian. Besides the Internet and when they come to prey, confuse and missionize, a Jew living in a Jewish community will never come across Messianic "Jews". They are not part of our community but are Christians.

Rita Loca said...

It really saddens me to see such hatred!!!

There are those who deny a gap exists between the 69th and 70th weeks. They wrongly assert such a long prophetic postponement would be inconsistent with other passages of prophetic Scripture. However, prophetic delays are really not uncommon at all. For instance, in some passages, both advents of Christ are mentioned practically in the same breath, yet we know an indeterminate period of time exists between them; for example, Genesis 49.10-12; 2 Samuel 7.13-16; Psalm 2.7,8 (see also Acts 13.33; Hebrews 1.5, 5.5); Psalm 22.1-31, 34.14,16; Isaiah 9.1-7, 11.1-2,11, 52.13 – 59.21, 61.1-11 (see also Luke 4.16-19 and 7.22); Joel 2.26 (see Acts 2.17); Micah 5.2-15; Zephaniah 2.13 – 3.20; Zechariah 9.9-10 and Malachi 3.1-3 and 4.5,6.

Anonymous said...

Jason: I'd rather be "stiff-necked and proud" than be a convert (from Judaism). I guess that's just Christian rhetoric, though, because as you know most Jews did not follow Jesus. Similarly, we have not followed many a false Messiah, Muhammad included.

But the hatred, my friend, is not aimed at Christians. No, it is aimed full steam at Messianic "Jews." I hope you realize this.

Avi said...

Ps. 97:10 - "Those who love G-d hate evil".
Ps. 139:21-22 - "Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate Thee? And do not I strive with those that rise up against Thee? I hate them with utmost hatred; I count them mine enemies."

It is permissible and even praiseworthy under Jewish law to hate apikorsim, heretics.

Let's look at your verses:

Gen. 49:10 - "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, as long as men come to Shiloh; and unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be." According to Christians, this means that the Moshiach, called Shiloh, will appear before the scepter, kingship is taken from Judah. This makes no sense in terms of JC since JC appeared in the time of the Second Temple, long after kings from the Davidic Dynasty ceased reigning and the scepter departed. The last king from the house of David was Zedekiah who was killed by Nebuchadnezzar. The later Hasmonean kings actually sinned by claiming the kingship since they were priests and not of the Davidic line. This verse really means that the Jewish people should not remove the kingship from Judah and give it to another tribe, like the Hasmoneans, until the advent of Shiloh, the Moshiach.

2 Sam 7:13-16 - "He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son; if he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men; but My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. And thy house and thy kingdom shall be made sure for ever before thee; thy throne shall be established for ever.'" Does this verse point exclusively to JC? It most certainly does not and can only be used as proof-text once someone has already accepted him. Circular reasoning. Moreover, it says "if he commit iniquity"- wasn't JC perfect and destined to die?

Ps. 2:7-8 - "I will tell of the decree: the LORD said unto me: 'Thou art My son, this day have I begotten thee. Ask of Me, and I will give the nations for thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for thy possession." Of course Christians understand JC as being the Son. Contrast this with Ps. 89: "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil have I anointed him... The enemy shall not exact from him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. And I will beat to pieces his adversaries before him, and smite them that hate him... He shall call unto Me: Thou art my Father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. I also will appoint him first-born, the highest of the kings of the earth." Clearly, David id called G-d's son metaphorically. Also, this Psalm gives JC control over the heathens while they had control over him. And this psalm does not point exclusively to JC as all Jews are G-d's firstborn (see Deut. 14:1). And verse 12 is a mistranslation which should read "serve the Lord with purity". Bar is aramaic for son but the psalms were written in Hebrew, in which it means purity.

Ps. 22 - Does this point exclusively to JC? It could be argued that Christians wrote that his final words were 'my G-d why have you forsaken me' in order to draw parallels between the verses. And just so you know, to pre-empt this, v. 17 says "For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.". Ka-ari means like a lion and not pierced. Odd how Christians interpret ka-ari as a lion everywhere else but here, no?

Ps. 34:14-16 - Again, where does this point exclusively towards him? We must all depart from evil and do good.

Isaiah 9:5-6 - "For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this." JC never had the gov't on his shoulders, did he?

Isaiah is known for the method by which he presents many of his messages through the use of prophetic names (Isaiah 7:3, 14; 8:3). In the verse under study, the prophet expounds his message by formulating a prophetic name for Hezekiah. The words of this name form a sentence expressive of God's greatness, which will become manifest in the benefits to be bestowed upon the future king in his lifetime. Thus, the name, though borne by the king, serves, in reality, as a testimonial to God.

Hezekiah is called "a wonderful counselor" because this name is a sign, which foretells God's design for him.

The Lord of hosts has sworn, saying: "As I have thought, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand, that I will break Asshur in My land, and upon My mountains trample him under foot; then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulder." This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations. For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? And His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? (Isaiah 14:24-27)

Be not afraid of the words that you have heard, with which the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed Me. Behold, I will put a spirit in him, and he shall hear a rumor, and shall return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land. (Isaiah 37:6-7)
Hezekiah is called "the mighty God" because this name is a sign that foretells God's defense of Jerusalem through the miraculous sudden mass death of Sennacherib's army.

Therefore thus says the Lord concerning the king of Assyria: He shall not come to this city, nor shoot an arrow there, neither shall he come before it with shield, nor cast a mound against it. By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and he shall not come to this city, says the Lord. For I will defend this city to save it, for My own sake, and for My servant David's sake. (Isaiah 37:33-35)

Hezekiah is called "the everlasting Father" because this name is a sign, which foretells that God will add years to his life. "Go, and say to Hezekiah: Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will add to your days fifteen years" (Isaiah 38:5).

Hezekiah is called "the ruler of peace" because this name is a sign, which foretells that God would be merciful to him. Punishment for lack of faith in the Almighty will be deferred and peace granted during the last years of his rule. "Then said Hezekiah to Isaiah: 'Good is the word of the Lord which you have spoken.' He said moreover: 'If but there shall be peace and security in my days'" (Isaiah 39:8).

The fulfillment of the above-stated declarations is foretold in Isaiah 9:6, when, after the Assyrian defeat, Hezekiah's glory increased and peace reigned for the rest of his life (2 Chronicles 32:23). Archaeologists have found that there was a sudden expansion of Judean settlements in the years following the fall of the northern kingdom. This indicates that many refugees fled south, thus giving added significance to the statement "that the government may be increased."

Hezekiah's kingdom is declared to be forever, for through his efforts to cleanse the Temple ritual of idolatry, even though apostasy followed under his son Menasseh, the Davidic dynasty was once more confirmed as the only true kingly rule that God would accept over his people "from henceforth and forever." The greatness of Hezekiah lies in his setting the stage for Israel's future. Hezekiah was a true reformer. He cleansed religious worship of foreign influence, purged the palace and the Temple of images and pagan altars, and reestablished pure monotheistic religion.

In the long run Hezekiah's achievements would outlive him, leaving an everlasting, indelible impact on the history of his people. Thus, God, through Isaiah, bestows upon Hezekiah this name which honors the king by proclaiming the great things God will do for him, and, through him, for the people of Israel.

Isaiah 11:1-2 - "And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a twig shall grow forth out of his roots. And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD." This verse refers to the messiah and since Christians believe him to be JC, this verse must be talking about him. HArdly proof. Meanwhile, if you continue a few verses down, it speaks of the wolf lying with the lamb and world peace. Clearly has not happened yet. Second Coming? Forced answer.

Isaiah 53: Suffering Servant- I have posted this a number of times from Jews for Judaism:

Before engaging in an examination of Isaiah 53 itself, some preliminary issues must be considered. First is the issue of circular reasoning. Even if we interpret the chapter as the Christians do (forgetting for a minute the mistranslations and distortions of context which will be noted below), the most that could be said is this: Isaiah 53 is about someone who dies for the sins of others. People may have seen Jesus die, but did anyone see him die as an atonement for the sins of others? Of course not; this is simply the meaning which the New Testament gives to his death. Only if you already accept the New Testament teaching that his death had a non-visible, spiritual significance can you than go back to Isaiah and say, "see - the Prophet predicted what I already believe." Isaiah 53, then, is in reality no "proof" at all, but rather a contrived confirmation for someone who has already chosen Christianity.

Second (and consistent with all Jewish teaching at the time), Jesus' own disciples didn't view Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy. For example, after Peter identifies Jesus as the Messiah (Matt. 16:16), he is informed that Jesus will be killed (Matt. 16:21). His response: "God forbid it, lord! This shall never happen to you" (Matt. 16:22). See, also, Mk. 9:31-32; Mk. 16:10-11; Jn. 20:9. Even Jesus didn't see Isaiah 53 as crucial to his messianic claims - why else did he call the Jews children of the devil for not believing in him before the alleged resurrection (Jn. 8:39-47)? And why did he later request that God "remove this cup from me" (Mk. 14:36) - didn't he know that a "removal of the cup" would violate the gentile understanding of Isaiah 53?

And third, even if we accept the gentile Christian interpretation of Isaiah 53, where is it indicated (either in Isaiah 53 or anywhere else in our Jewish Scriptures) that you must believe in this "Messiah" to get the benefits?

Since any portion of Scripture is only understood properly when viewed in the context of God's revelation as a whole, some additional study will be helpful before you "tackle" Isaiah 53.

Look at the setting in which Isaiah 53 occurs. Earlier on in Isaiah, God had predicted exile and calamity for the Jewish people. Chapter 53, however, occurs in the midst of Isaiah's "Messages of Consolation", which tell of the restoration of Israel to a position of prominence and a vindication of their status as God's chosen people. In chapter 52, for example, Israel is described as "oppressed without cause" (v.4) and "taken away" (v.5), yet God promises a brighter future ahead, one in which Israel will again prosper and be redeemed in the sight of all the nations (v.1-3, 8-12).

Chapter 54 further elaborates upon the redemption which awaits the nation of Israel. Following immediately after chapter 53's promise of a reward for God's servant in return for all of its suffering (53:10-12), chapter 54 describes an unequivocally joyous fate for the Jewish people. Speaking clearly of the Jewish people and their exalted status (even according to all Christian commentaries), chapter 54 ends as follows: "`This is the heritage of the servants of the L-rd and their vindication is from Me,' declares the L-rd."

In the original Hebrew texts, there are no chapter divisions, and Jew and Christian alike agree that chapter 53 is actually a continuation of the prophecy which begins at 52:13. Accordingly, our analysis must begin at that verse.

52:13 "Behold, My servant will prosper." Israel in the singular is called God's servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10) - the Messiah is not. Other references to Israel as God's servant include Jer. 30:10 (note that in Jer. 30:17, the servant Israel is regarded by the nations as an outcast, forsaken by God, as in Isa. 53:4); Jer. 46:27-28; Ps. 136:22; Lk. 1:54. ALSO: Given the Christian view that Jesus is God, is God His own servant?

52:15 - 53:1 "So shall he (the servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?" Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the "servant of the L-rd," and they will say "who would believe what we have heard?". 52:15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world, the gentiles, who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53. See, also, Micah 7:12-17, which speaks of the nations' astonishment when the Jewish people again blossom in the Messianic age.

53:1 "And to whom has the arm of the L-rd been revealed?" In Isaiah, and throughout our Scriptures, God's "arm" refers to the physical redemption of the Jewish people from the oppression of other nations (see, e.g., Isa. 52:8-12; Isa. 63:12; Deut. 4:34; Deut. 7:19; Ps. 44:3).

53:3 "Despised and rejected of men." While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus, a man who was supposedly "praised by all" (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25), who would later acclaim him as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as he was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared "a riot of the people" (Mk. 14:1-2).

53:3 "A man of pains and acquainted with disease." Israel's adversities are frequently likened to sickness - see, e.g., Isa. 1:5-6; Jer. 10:19; Jer 30:12.

53:4 "Surely our diseases he carried and our pains he bore." In Matt. 8:17, this is correctly translated, and said to be literally (not spiritually) fulfilled in Jesus' healing of the sick, a reading inconsistent with the Christian mistranslation of 53:4 itself.

53:4 "Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of G- D and afflicted." See Jer. 30:17 - of God's servant Israel (30:10), it is said by the nations, "It is Zion; no one cares for her."

53:5 "But he was wounded from (NOTE: not for) our transgressions, he was crushed from (AGAIN: not for) our iniquities." Whereas the nations had thought the Servant (Israel) was undergoing Divine retribution for its sins (53:4), they now realize that the Servant's sufferings stemmed from their actions and sinfulness. This theme is further developed throughout our Jewish Scriptures - see, e.g., Jer. 50:7; Jer. 10:25. ALSO: Note that the Messiah "shall not fail nor be crushed till he has set the right in the earth" (Isa. 42:4).

53:7 "He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth." Note that in the prior chapter (Isa. 52), Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). A similar theme is developed in Psalm 44, wherein King David speaks of Israel's faithfulness even in the face of gentile oppression (44:17- 18) and describes Israel as "sheep to be slaughtered" in the midst of the unfaithful gentile nations (44:22,11).

Regarding the claim that Jesus "did not open his mouth" when faced with oppression and affliction, see Matt. 27:46, Jn. 18:23, 36-37.

53:8 "From dominion and judgment he was taken away." Note the correct translation of the Hebrew. The Christians are forced to mistranslate, since - by Jesus' own testimony - he never had any rights to rulership or judgment, at least not on the "first coming." See, e.g., Jn. 3:17; Jn. 8:15; Jn. 12:47; Jn. 18:36.

53:8 "He was cut off out of the land of the living." Israel is described as "cut off" in Ez 37:11.

53:8 "From my peoples' sins, there was injury to them."Here the Prophet makes absolutely clear, to anyone familiar with Biblical Hebrew, that the oppressed Servant is a collective Servant, not a single individual. The Hebrew word "lamoh - (lamed-mem-vav) ", when used in our Scriptures, always means "to them" never "to him" and may be found, for example, in Psalm 99:7 - "They kept his testimonies, and the statute that He gave to them."

53:9 "His grave was assigned with wicked men." See Ez. 37:11-14, wherein Israel is described as "cut off" and God promises to open its "graves" and bring Israel back into its own land. Other examples of figurative deaths include Ex. 10:17; 2 Sam. 9:8; 2 Sam. 16:9.

53:9 "And with the rich in his deaths." Perhaps King James should have changed the original Hebrew, which the plural "deaths" makes clear that we are dealing with a collective Servant, i.e., Israel, which will "come to life" when the exile ends (Ez. 37:14).

53:9 "He had done no violence." See Matt. 21:12; Mk. 11:15-16; Lk. 19:45; Lk. 19:27; Matt. 10:34 and Lk. 12:51; then judge for yourself whether this passage is truly consistent with the New Testament account of Jesus.

53:10 "He shall see his seed." The Hebrew word for "seed", used in this verse, always refers to physical descendants in our Jewish Scriptures. See, e.g., Gen. 12:7; Gen. 15:13; Gen. 46:6; Ex. 28:43. A different word, generally translated as "sons", is used to refer to spiritual descendants (see Deut. 14:1, e.g.).

53:10 "He will prolong his days." Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days be prolonged of someone who is alleged to be God?

53:11 "With his knowledge the righteous one, my Servant, will cause many to be just." Note again the correct translation: the Servant will cause many to be just, he will not "justify the many." The Jewish mission is to serve as a "light to the nations" which will ultimately lead the world to a knowledge of the one true God, this both by example (Deut. 4:5-8; Zech. 8:23) and by instructing the nations in God's Law (Isa. 2:3-4; Micah 4:2-3).

53:12 "Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty." If Jesus is God, does the idea of reward have any meaning? Is it not rather the Jewish people - who righteously bore the sins of the world and yet remained faithful to God (Ps. 44) - who will be rewarded, and this in the manner described more fully in Isaiah chapters 52 and 54?

Isaiah 61:1-2 - This verse speaks about the moshiach. How do we know that the moshiach will be JC unless we've already bought into Christian spin-city.

Micah 5:1-2 - "But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days. Therefore will He give them up, until the time that she who travaileth hath brought forth; then the residue of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel." This verse says that the Moshiach's line will originate in Bethelehem, David being born there. "whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days" means that the concept of Moshiachis from the time of creation itself. Again, does this point exclusively to JC? Of course, he didn't fulfill the rest of the verse which speaks of the ingathering of the exile.

Zeph. 2-3 - Huh? What does this have anything to do with anything. It speaks of the Moshiach but not necessarily of JC.

Zech. 9:9-10 - "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, shout, O daughter of Jerusalem; behold, thy king cometh unto thee, he is triumphant, and victorious, lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off, and he shall speak peace unto the nations; and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth." First of all, JC was never king of the Jews. We all rejected him, that's why we were called C-killers. He did not speak "peace unto the nations". In Acts 10-11, the Apostles were upset that Peter preached to the gentiles. And he obviously never had any dominion, especially not from sea to sea. Christians have to resort to the forced Second Coming answer.

Malachi 3:1-3 - "Behold, I send My messenger, and he shall clear the way before Me; and the Lord, whom ye seek, will suddenly come to His temple, and the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in, behold, he cometh, saith the LORD of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? And who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap; And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver; and there shall be they that shall offer unto the LORD offerings in righteousness." Again, where does this speak necessarily of JC? The Moshiach will come to the rebuilt Temple and purify it.

Anonymous said...

another thing: you guys keep referring to big daddy as "our fellow Jew." To you he's "our fellow Jew." To us he ISN'T. Please don't associate him with us because to be quite frank that's a bit offensive. I mean, how would you like to be associated with an idol-worshipper?(just an example)

Rita Loca said...

Bar, I'll be back by to read this tomorrow. I am in a conference right now and do not have much time.
I already know you will reject anything that relates to the New Testament which is why I usually do not bother to comment.
I have heard it all.

Big Daddy Jew said...

Eitan: I will simply say that it is clear you are ignorant of Torah because you're unable to debate with me on the merit of the text. Instead, you show your ignorance by making personal attacks. Therefore, you aren't worth my time.

BK: I do, however, enjoy debating with you. It bothers me a little that there's a pack mentality going on here. When it's you and I debating, it's friendly and respectful. When Eitan the murderer shows up, you swing to his level and become virolent as well. (You realize that the Talmud teaches that speaking lashon hara is the same as murder, because of the intent of his heart and because he is trying to murder my character and reputation.) There should be no place for that on your blog, BK. I have always enjoyed the intelligent, (if not lively!) debates that have transpired here. You shouldn't permit lashon hara here. Take a stand.

Big Daddy Jew said...

BK, I just read your rebuttal and it's good. I am unable to respond since I'm at work, but I will respond in detail tomorrow since I have the day off. Thank you for this...I learn and grow through this!

Tsofah said...

It's been awhile since I've visited here...hope it's ok if I leave a comment. :-)

You know, I've heard arguements pro and con. Some, from both sides, "hold water". Some, from both sides, don't. Not all the scriptural documents survived, so we do not have a complete picture. Historical documents have some helpful value, and some have nothing on the subject at all.

So, that is where it comes down to a matter of faith, in what one believes, right? smile

It DOES bother me to know of some of the tactics some missionary organizations use. Sure, I'd like for others to believe as I do. That does not mean I have the right to mis-represent that very thing which I believe. Nor do I have the right to mis-speak for the teachings of Jesus, which have unfortunately been maligned by Christians, Jews, and others. (I know, that will get some reactions! uh oh)

The truth of it all is in one's heart. Is not the truth of Torah understood only through the heart? Is this not why the anniversary of Ptolemy forcing Jewish scribes to translate (NOT transliterate) the Torah from Hebrew to Greek is commemorated with mourning? Because one cannot understand it with words alone? That one must understand it from the heart?

Just some thoughts here...(ducking the barrage??? lol)

Avi said...

JM: Nonetheless, there are many people watching/reading and the stakes are high. If you don't want to participate, I respect that. I just hoped that I could get a Christian rebuttal so that I oculd formulate a Jewish rebuttal. As you can see, many Jews have some misguided ideas.

BD"J": The prohibition against speaking Lashon Hara applies when spoken about someone who is considered "amitecha" (of your people), namely in observance of Torah and mitzvot. However, regarding those who are recognizably "apikorsim" (heretics), it is a mitzvah (fulfillment of a positive commandment) to disparage and shame them, to their face and behind their back, for everything that one witnesses or hears about them.

The Torah states (Lev. 25:17 & Lev. 19:16) "One should not wrong his fellow" and "Do not act as a talebearer among your people," but heretics do not fit under this category for they do not act as "your people." Therefore, we follow the practice (as taught in Avot D'Rabbi Natan, a work from the Talmudic era), "those who hate you, L-rd, I will hate, and your rebellious ones I will dispute."

An "apikorus" (heretic) is one who denies the laws and prophecies of Israel, whether the Written Law or Oral Law. Even if he says, "All the Torah is true with the exception of one Scriptural verse, kal v'chomer, g'zeira shava, or one grammatical detail," he is included in this category. ["Kal v'chomer" and "g'zeira shava" are Talmudic terms for two of the logical principles from which we understand many laws.]

*Important note: there is a large in-between category not mentioned in this paragraph, namely those who do not observe - or even commit some sins - but without the malicious intent of heresy. Lashon Hara against someone in this middle category is forbidden. The purpose of these laws permitting speech against an actual heretic is not for a community to degenerate into nasty name-calling, but rather to protect itself against the influence of those who flagrantly do not care about the image they set for the community and even intentionally wish to destroy it.

Delta: You are always welcome here. For the heart, the complete opposite of what you said is true. The heart is fickle. The lusts of the heart have no intelligence. The prophet Jeremiah therefore declared that, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9); therefore, in Numbers 15:39-39 the Torah commands the nation of Israel to wear tzitsis (fringes) on the corners of our garments so that “you do not follow the lust of your own heart and your own eyes which lead you astray.” The difference between the intelligent man and the simpleton is not the correctness of their decisions, but rather the cunning sinner can more skillfully defend and justify his iniquity. One's faith must be ruled by reason and only then by faith. I can feel in my heart that Baal, Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Zeus, etc. are god (G-d forbid) but that does not make it right. the heart only counts if its in the right place. King David therefore beseeched God for this in his uplifting prayer in Psalm 119:36, “Turn my heart to your commandments, and not to selfish gain.”

Tsofah said...

bar kochba:

If one is seeking the heart of G-d, will not G-d answer him? Example: 2 Chronicles 15:3-4 For a long time Ysra'el was without the true G-d, without a cohen who could teach, and without Torah. 4
But when, in their distress, they turned to ADONAI the G-d of Ysra'el and sought him, they found him.

I know how important the 8th of Tevet is, and have been taught it is the day that darkness covered the earth because of the Torah being given to the Greeks under Ptolemy's orders. Darkness covered the earth because the people who now had the Torah had no heart understanding with it. It had become a common part of a collection of words of a library and no longer respected as from the Almighty, Living G-d. This is because, again, there was no heart respect, understanding, or love.

In the same way, there is a full lack among Christians who read the scriptures, because they do not understand the heart of the Torah, or the Tanakh. The more I read, studied, and understood the Torah and Tanakh, the more I understood the teachings of Jesus. Amazing. And I understood that Jesus did not teach several things traditional Christianity attributed to Jesus.

I fully believe that Judiasm should be respected. Although I may not be Jewish, I embrace the teachings of the heart of Judiasm as being good, and G-dly.

As a Christian, for me to not do so is betraying that which Jesus taught.

Anonymous said...

big daddy: if anyone is a "murderer' here it is only you--not your Christian friends(Hashem yishmor). You have murdered the souls of your ancestors: hundreds if not thousands of practicing Jews who survived and who's Judaism survived against all odds. You are a chutzpan.

May G-d forbid any Jews are influenced by you and believe you me, achoti, I would call on Ezer Le'achim to get Elli Ishai's attention ASAP if I got my hands on your name. The reason I'm not arguing against you on a theological basis is because I don't know enough. I'm in the process of returning to tshuva. You probably think you could convert me on the basis of your arguments--just because you could "prove" to me Yeshu was the Moshiach. Well, you're wrong. I have a Jewish neshama and there pal, you're stuck.

Anonymous said...

Shimshi: thanks for the shiur. I'll make sure to insult those who abuse the Jewish people even more than I already have from now on.

Papa Frank said...

Eitan -- "May G-d forbid any Jews are influenced by you and believe you me, achoti, I would call on Ezer Le'achim to get Elli Ishai's attention ASAP if I got my hands on your name."

Please forgive the correlation but this is completely tantamount to people turning in their Jewish neighbors to the Gestapo of Germany. Why would your actions here be any better than theirs were? This is very dangerous, cruel, and hateful. Who upholds the Jew but God Himself? Would Jews be influenced apart from God allowing it?

Avi said...

FF: Very inappropriate. I hate when the Shoah is abused to prove any point. What I would say is that counter-missionary groups like Jews for Judaism, Yad L'Achim, Outreach Judaism, etc. should be given wider access to distribute their material and the kosher treif fraud organizations should be exposed. We should not give up on a single Jew because the Torah says that even if we are dispersed onto the other side of heaven (meaning spiritually), HaShem will bring us back. Look at the descendants of anusim, Jews who converted to Christianity during the Inquisition, who are now returning, or Judaism in Russia, even after the Communists (yimach shemam) tried to destroy Torah. Missionaries should be given no venue to peddle their poisonour treif. Evil cannot be given a foothold, look at the case of the Wayward city which was condemned to destruction (even though the Talmud mentions that this never actually happened but is simply theoretical). The severity of idolatry is emphasized by the fact that the most extreme punishment in Judaism is reserved for a Maisit―someone who promotes and convinces others to follow idolatry. As described in Torah, this person is actively involved in eroding values at the core, and there is no greater threat to society. (See Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

Eitan: It is most certianly a mitzvah to hate apikorsim, those who lead Jews astray. Note that this obviously does not apply to non-observant Jews who we must love as our brothers and bring them back to Torah. The Rambam writes (Hilchot De'ot 6:3):
"It is a mitzva for every Jew to love every other Jew like his own self... Therefore a person must praise his fellow Jew and be careful with his property the same way he is careful with his own property and desires to be treated respectfully. Whoever seeks honor through his neighbor's shame has no portion in the World-to-Come..." Our Sages said (Eliyahu Rabbah 28): So said G-d to Israel: "My children! Have I failed to give you anything? What do I ask of you? Only that you love, respect and revere one another, and that you avoid all sin, theft and unseemly behavior." It is also a mitzvah to mock idolatry. "And the name of another deity you shall not invoke it should not be heard in your mouth." (Ex. 23:13) That's why you see JC instead of his actual name.
Rabbi Nachman said: All mockery is forbidden except the mockery of idolatry, which is permitted. (Sanhedrin 63b). Also know that an apikoros can only be a Jew so one need not hate a non-Jew who has wrong ideas unless of course he is an anti-semite. (I know that I will be misquoted on this and called hateful so know that I do not hate anyone besides anti-semites and apikorsim.)

It is also a mitzvah to mock our enemies. (Think of the video/song published in Israel during the Second Lebanon War of 'yallah, ya Nasrallah'... I hope you know what I'm talking about). Since Tehillim 2:4 says "He that sitteth in heaven laugheth, the Lord hath them in derision" and we are called upon to imitate G-d, we must laugh at our enemies as well.

Papa Frank said...

Please lend me your forgiveness, BK. This idea of one Jew hating another and seeking to have him and his family expelled from Israel is beyond what I can fathom. Jews have been the victims of being hunted down and rounded up and expelled by many governments but to suggest that the Jews do this to other Jews who think differently is an atrocity. This thought grieves my spirit and soul. I pray for the peace of Israel but couldn't imagine that they needed protection from their own Jewish neighbors seeking to expel them from the country.

Tsofah said...


I do not understand the hatred that seems to stand out in your post. Truly I'm sorry you are angry. Yet, not all are wanting to do harm here.

Bar Kochba, Is it not better to love? We cannot change the actions of others, only our own. If we act in love, is concern, and not out of hate, isn't it more effective...not to mention healthy? The blood pressure lowers, the heart doesn't race so much, jaws unclench, etc.

What separates a Jew from other groups who taunt and mock and hate? Doesn't being chosen mean showing a better way?

These are sincere questions, please know that. I'm not picking on people or trying to provoke. I truly am trying to understand all this. Shalom rav to all here.

Anonymous said...

Jason: that is beyone unnapropriate. That is pure bull. You say you love Israel. I applaud you. Good for you! But please don't meddle in the affairs of the Jewish people and certainly don't ever, ever compare me wanting to let Yad Le'achim know about big daddy's missionary activities to the Holocaust. I WANT A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING BETWEEN US ON THIS.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Papa Frank said...

Eitan - you failed to explain why your actions would be any better! I did not compare your actions to the guards of the camps I compared them with people turning in their neighbors. You brought hate here, not me.

Papa Frank said...

BK -- If you wish I will delete my other comment.

Anonymous said...

The funny thing is I don't fault you, Jason. I don't fault big daddy either--nor for his statements.

Avi said...

Let's get this very, very clear: I do not hate any Christians and appreciate your support for Israel. I count you among my allies. That being said, a Jew accepting a god other than HaShem and a religion other than Judaism is treason, something which cannot be tolerated. Ps. 139:21-22 - "Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate Thee? And do not I strive with those that rise up against Thee? I hate them with utmost hatred; I count them mine enemies."

Jason, I explained that missionizing cannot be tolerated, just as the Torah demands that a Wayward City be destroyed. We are commanded numerous times "you shall exterminate the evil from your midst".

You do not understand but these so-called "Messianic Jews" are not Jews at all. Can a person still be caleld a Christian if he does not believe in Christ? Is somebody still Muslims if he doesn't believe in the prophethood of Muhammad and worships something other than Allah? Can you have a Christian for Zeus? We want peace between Jews! A person of Jewish lineage who believes in JC is not a Jew!

Papa Frank said...

Then teach me. Why is your hate here any better than any other groups hate? Or do you not consider it hate to try to uproot a man from his home? I don't understand.

Papa Frank said...

BK -- BDJ has expressed nothing but love for God and not hate. He does not hate the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He appears to be proud of being Jewish and loves Israel. I do not understand the disdain for someone who would probably stand up beside you and take up arms for the land of Israel. Even if you are right and he is not a "true Jew" does that mean that he can not serve God? Please don't lose sight of the fact that the Jews belong to God and not the other way around. God does not belong to the Jews or anyone else.

Rita Loca said...

It is the hate which I do not wish to participate in. I do not mind a debate, but I see no need for the hate.
One of my core beliefs is individual soul liberty. I may not agree with you, I may personally disagree with your beliefs, but I would die defending your right to believe it.
It saddens me to know that Jews in Israel are not allowed this most basic human right!

Big Daddy Jew said...

Eitan, could I ask you a question? What if I said, "Geez, I was way off! Yeshua isn't the Messiah at all! Rather, I believe that Rav Shlomo Arba, the Chief Ashkenazi Rabbi in Israel is Mashiach!"
Would you still spew hate at me and threaten to have me and my family thrown out of Israel?

Avi said...

JM: Nobody can be expelled from Israel for believing differently. This is all hyperbole. Unfortunately, the laws against missionization are lax and not enforced. BD"J" has the right to believe as he wishes, just as the Jews had the right to worship Baal, Ashtoret and any other pagan god.

A full answer from Jews for Judaism:
Actually, belief in Jesus is a horrendous sin with grave consequences for any Jew who professes to do so. To understand this let us look at the tragic apostasy of the Northern Kingdom of Israel and its dominant tribe, Ephraim. God, speaking through the prophet Hosea declares, "When Ephraim spoke with trembling, he became exalted in Israel; but when he became guilty through Baal, he died" (Hosea 13:1). When they served God, Ephraim was "exalted," but when they became guilty of idol worship and remained unrepentant despite prophetic warnings to cease their sinful ways they signed their own death warrant. Ephraim died a spiritual death long before it suffered national destruction.

From the prophetic message we learn that apostates, even during their lifetime are reckoned as dead as long as they remain unrepentant. The prophet not only denounces belief in molten images fashioned by craftsmen, but also those who trust in a false savior- god: "And I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt, and gods beside Me you should not know, and there is no savior but Me" (Hosea 13:4).

God desires the apostate's repentance and beckons him/her to renounce iniquity: "From the clutches of the grave I would ransom them, from death I would redeem them, I will be your words of death; I will decree the grave upon you. Remorse shall be hidden from My eyes" (Hosea 13:14).

For the apostate who does not repent, God says, "I will decree the grave upon you." In a more literal sense, "I will be the cause of your being cut off to the grave." Katavcha, from the verb ketev, denotes "cutting" (e.g. Psalms 91:6). Its primary meaning is "to cut," but in Hosea 13:14, ketev takes on the secondary meaning "decree." In Hebrew, the primary word for decree is gezayra, the root of which is gezer, "to cut." There are a number of word roots in Hebrew whose primary meaning is "cutting," yet have a secondary meaning of a final, permanent decision or ruling (e.g., pasak, chakak, gezer, charatz, karat).

As we see, the belief in the false savior-god Jesus is a grave sin. The unrepentant apostate is not only shunned and considered dead by the Jewish community. God Himself considers the unrepentant apostate as spiritually dead in this life and in physical death the apostate is all the more so "cut off."

JM, I do not hate you, nor Jason, or any Christian. I deeply respect you. I do not, however, have any respect whatsoever for a Jew who betrays the faith of his ancestors. I like my Christians Christian and my Jews Jewish.

Avi said...

BD"J": The chief Ashkenazi rabbi of Israel is Yonah Metzger, btw. And the answer depends. The people who believe that the Rebbe was the moshiach are simply misguided, as long as they do not believe hhim to be divine and do not worship him. What set Christianity apart is the belief in a human being G-d-incarnate and its rejection of the Oral Law and the mitzvot.

Papa Frank said...

BK -- Please allow me to boil down the argument then. If Jesus was indeed a manifestation to man of God Himself, not separate from God but God showing Himself to man, would you then agree that he was the long awaited Messiah? This, of course, on your part being completely hypothetical in nature.

Yehudi said...

BK and Eitan, I understand the harsh position that many take concerning messianics, but I just don't see it as helpful. As many of you know, my wife is Messianic, loves Hashem, Israel, and the traditions of our Elders. She doesn't missionize anyone, she just finds fulfillment in her relationship with Hashem. Obviously, I take a softer position than you do.

I have found in my life that you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. I am much more influential over others when I respond to them in love and kindness than when I respond harshly.

God bless you, BDJ. I pray that you will know the TRUTH of Hashem and the Torah, that you will accept the Traditions that have been preserved and protected with our blood. Though we disagree on alot of things, I don't condemn you and I don't wish you dead. I would be glad to engage you in a debate about the historicity of JC, but I would rather discuss Torah and Talmud. That's why I like BK so much!

Shalom everyone...it's too charged up fo rme in here.

Avi said...

Jason: Such a belief is as contrary to Judaism as the worship of a totem-pole or a volcano. The Moshiach will be a man, a righteous mortal king, who will redeem us from exile and bring the world to service of HaShem.

"And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a twig shall grow forth out of his roots. And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears."

If the Moshiach will be G-d, how can He rest His own spirit upon Himself? Does G-d need to rest wisdom upon Himself? Council? Might? Does HaShem fear Himself?

Papa Frank said...

So even if Jesus were a manifestation of God you would not accept him as the long awaited Messiah?

Avi said...

If the sky were green a dn Buddha was god, would you be a hipopotamus?

One cannot say 'if there as no G-d', or 'if there were many gods', since G-d's existence as One and Only is part of the definition of existence. It is like saying what if a triangle had 4 sides.

Papa Frank said...

A pyramid has four sides and yet for all intensive purposes appears to be a triangle from many perspectives. How about a yes or no.

Anonymous said...

big daddy: First of, let me apologize once again. I got carried away. No harm intended. The likelihood of me reporting anyone are close to zero. You see, I was raised in the Soviet Union and found out about being Jewish at the age of 7, upon entering Italy.

Anyhow, if you believed anyone at this point to be the Mashiach I would consider you mentally unstable. If it were the Lubavitche Rebbi, however, I would repsect your opinion more than the one you currently hold.

In short I don't want to discuss religion any longer. Not with those who completely oppose my view. We can and have been friends and have shown the world Jews and Christians and Jews and Muslims can be friends. I'm going to refrain from making stupid statements about having big daddy expelled b/s like B.K. said, you usually don't get expelled from Israel(though there are cases).

I'm inviting all y'all to check out my latest post. Peace!

Big Daddy Jew said...

Eitan, thank you for your apology..I accept. Please accept mine for taunting you for not knowing enough Torah/Talmud to debate with me. I was out of line, and I admire and respect you for entering into study. If we establish an environment of mutual respect, then we can debate anything. I have been involved in some very intense debates in a beit midrash where I though "blood will surely flow!" but afterwards there's lots of hugs and we all went out for dinner. We don;t all have to have the same beliefs, but we can all be friends. I resent the fact that you consider me 'lost' to Israel and my heritage. I consider you brothers, and I would die protecting you/Israel if needed.

Interestingly, there are over 15,000 Messianic Jews serving in the IDF in 2007.

I hope we can move from here, leave the horrible comments aside, and share ideas and thoughts with mtual respect. I hold that respect for you both, I hope you will have it for me as well.


Clover said...

wow, interesting comment thread! Why do you want messianic jews to leave israel? Would you rather have jihadis and extremists? And come on, we christians pray for the jews and we pray to the God of all creation- there's only one God. Yeshu who we believe is the promised Messiah was jewish, surely you believe that and He taught us love and you're going to hate us for that? :(

Anonymous said...

You are deadly wrong.
The wrath of the Lamb is coming.You will see very soon who you have pierced.Repent and believe for your own sake before it is too late.

Anonymous said...

is Bar Kochba still on this blog??? (Last posting was years ago). I would like to contribute something for you to consider in view of your conclusions regarding the genealogies of Matthew & Luke as being errant. I'll await your response...in the meantime, I'm very thankful for this blogsite and info. being on the web. Patrick