Wednesday, June 20, 2007

I'm outraged, again!

Off the top of my head, these are some recent events which caused Muslims to riot, be outraged and get offended. Feel free to add others if I have forgotten:
- Salman Rushdie being knighted
- The Pope quoting a 500-year old text which suggested that there is a connection between Islam and violent; Muslims proved him wrong by shooting an Italian nun in Somalia and firebombing churches in Gaza
- The infamous Muhammad cartoons
- A German production of Idomeneo which featured Muhammad's severed head
- A Quebec town, Herouxville, signing a constitution outlawing stoning woman and burning them alive, among other things
Here's a list of some things that have never seemed to upset Muslims much, despite the clear "hijacking" and "distortion" of their faith:
- Flying planes into skyscrapers and murdering over 2000 innocent people
- Blowing up London buses and metros
- Blowing up Madrid trains
- Launching rockets on Sderot
- Arab Muslims murdering over 400 000 Black Muslims in Darfur
The list simply goes on and on. Muslims, my message to you is very clear:
Shut the hell up! If you're not going to protest the "distortion" of your faith by terrorists and murderers, and will not raise our voice against the hatred being perpetrated in the name of Allah, shut up. There are far more important things than the Queen of England knighting (what does that even mean today?) an author who wrote a book about an embarrassing event in the Qur'an. How about speaking up against the constand bombardment of Sderot for example, or the genocide in Darfur? Maybe you're just too offended to protest...


WomanHonorThyself said...

hiya Bar..wait til they get a load of the National lampoon flick..ha!..great post!!

Elizabeth said...

As a half-Christian, half-Jew, I can't imagine what it would be like if people judged me by:

1. The words of Jerry Falwell
2. The words of Pat Robertson
3. The behavior of Baruch Goldstein

I could go on.

Smearing an entire group of people because of the actions of a few is called...bigotry.

Der Baron von Bornstein said...

Neither the mainstream media nor much independent press pays any attention to the fair, righteous, kind, helpful, beneficial acts of Muslims.

Wait a second... There are 1.3 Billion Muslims. To use the term "Muslims" when addressing a particular group of Muslims, is a crass blanket statement.

Just because I've had a lot of coffee this night, I will go down your list, and explain, my friend, how there is another way to understand the situations which you, quite intelligently, bring up.

- Salman Rushdie being knighted

He has said things that some particularly influential people got angry at, and without explaining why, demanded his death. Such was their influence and fervor, they've riled a lot of people up. People get riled up ALL THE FUCKING TIME. There are protests all over the world, probably semi-daily, over various reasons people get pissed.

- The Pope quoting a 500-year old text which suggested that there is a connection between Islam and violent; Muslims proved him wrong by shooting an Italian nun in Somalia and firebombing churches in Gaza

The Pope is a bigot. Sure theres a connection between Islam and violence, I'm cognizant of that, but there is such a connection in MANY other religions. I've made this point before: there are certain violent radicals, who use their ideology, no matter what it is, from communism to judaism, to justify their violence. Why they are violent radicals in the first place is a good question to explore; no one is born violent.

- The infamous Muhammad cartoons

Freedom of the press is a serious right, and a lot of people got riled up over something probably inconsequential in the long run. But people also get very upset about Jesus being portrayed in less than pleasant ways, and if a popular newspaper were to portray the grand lubavitcher rebbe in an anti-semitic way, a lot of Jews would be pretty upset. Portraying Mohammmed the way the newspapers did, was in the arab world, the equivalent. I'm not saying it's right to get as upset as many people did, but the fervently religious are fervent in many other situations as well.

- Flying planes into skyscrapers and murdering over 2000 innocent people

If, during world war two, a group of Jews took a plane and flew it into the Führerbunker, a lot of Jews would be pretty happy. That's how the Arab world, really, most of the world sees Amerikka. The US is an empire with grubby hands.

- Blowing up London buses and metros
- Blowing up Madrid trains
- Launching rockets on Sderot

Same for all that. England and Spain were assisting the Amerikkan Empire, they, perceived by many in the Arabic world, received their just desserts.

You make a good point though- more outrage against hijacking of the Islamic faith needs to be evident, but more of it needs to be broadcasted, and that responsibility lies on the shoulders of the mass media, which will NEVER do that.

Don't forget what terrorism is though, my friend.

"I will stay with you with Webster's Collegiate Dictionary: "Terror is an intense, overpowering fear." He uses terrorizing, terrorism, "the use of terrorizing methods of governing or resisting a government."

Eliyahu m'Tsiyon said...

elizabeth & bornstein seem rather naive to me. Mass murder of tribal Blacks in the southern Sudan has been going on since independence in 1956. The Arabs don't care, the Muslims don't care, the West only decided to care when the massacres reached Darfur where the Blacks have been islamized.

Further, you ought to know exactly what the Muslim religion teaches.

So you, Liz, wouldn't want to be judged by what one person says. The Qur'an teaches [Sura 9:29] that Muslims should conquer the world and make Jews and Christians pay tribute until they are humiliated. Hence, it's not a matter of what one persons says or thinks, but what the recognized principles of the religion teach. Hence, it is fair of Bar Kokhba to judge Islam as violent as such. Because that is what it teaches. And jihad is a Muslim principle.

Eliyahu m'Tsiyon said...

by the way,
BK, I have put a link to For Zion's Sake on my blog.

Der Baron von Bornstein said...

I ask you, my friend, what is Jihad?

And often enough, the reason Amerikka et al. don't care about places like Darfur, is because there is no economic structure to benefit from if Amerikka went in to 'help'. Humanitarian aid just ain't big enough of a cause.

Brooke said...

I've noticed that rabid anti-Semites and communist wannabes usually spell America as "Amerikka."

So, if we aren't to benefit from helping out in Africa because of their non-existant economic structure, kindly explain all the billions of dollars of foreign aid that we send over.

The answer to Darfur is out of control political correctness and apathy of the MSM.

Der Baron von Bornstein said...

I've noticed that people who want to do things do things. I'm neither an anti-semite, a communist nor a wanna-be, nor am I infected with rabies.

A large amount of the money that is sent is as a result of various NGOs, various aid organizations based in Amerikka, various religious organizations based in Amerikka, and finally, in constituencies where people give enough of a crap, they rally for their elected representative to rally in congress to send aid.

However- Originally, the world was given the two reasons for intervention in Iraq- WMDS and Humanitarian Aid. The WMDs were absolute bullshit, duh, but sure, Humanitarian Aid, that's a worthy cause. The US thus put many billions times the amount that has ever gone to Darfur, in Iraq, for various reasons.

On another note- I'm noticing many personal attacks towards me, disproportionate to the personal attacks coming from me, which are none. In one session, I've been called naive, a communist wannabe, and a rabid anti-semite. Attacking your opponent debases and devalues your opinion, and becomes petty name-calling. I would be much obliged if that would end, lest you forfeit your value in this debate.

Bar Kochba said...

Let's go over this again:
- Rushdie getting knighted:
You know why he got people angry? Islam is incompatible with free speech. Muhammad declared that if anyone cahnges his religion, he must be killed. And yes, there are world protests semi-daily, yet usually Muslims whining because they've been offended. There is nothing wrong with Muslims protesting peacefully per se yet it is usually accompanied by cries of "death to (insert infidel land) and "death to Rushdie". Preaching for someone's murder is ILLEGAL.
- The Pope daring to suggest that Islam is violent:
How is the Pope a bigot? Which race does he hate? Muslims, are NOT a race. There are black, arab, white, chinese... Muslims. Islam is a political and religious ideology and definetely not a race.
Of couse any religion or ideology could be abused to cause violence, yet some ideologies preach violence as an integral part of their dogma. Could any Christian leader argue for a Christian jihad based on the example of J.C., the so-called Prince of Peace? Does the Torah ever demand for Jews to wage war against the gentiles and establish halakha over the entire world? Did Buddha ever claim that the paradise lies under the sword?
No, but all of these things can be attributed to Muhammad, a violent, hateful warlord who declared it an obligation upon every Muslim to wage war against the Infidels. Pick up a Qur'an! Its rather telling that people never seem to go blow themselves up after reading Winnie the Pooh or any other book, but they do after reading the Qur'an which promises paradise and virgins to all those who "kill and are killed" in the name of Allah.
- The Muhammad cartoons:
My problem is not that Muslims protested. They have every right to, just as I would be insulted if Moses was portrayed negatively. However, I'd get upset, maybe march around with a little picket sign and then go home. Muslims, however, bombed churches, murdered Christians and Danes, and marched around with signs reading "Behead thse who insult Islam!". This is clearly insigntment to murder.
- 9/11:
The WTC was not a military building but an office building with thousands of innocent men, women and children in it. Are you condoning this massacre? You are contradicting yourself. You state that most Muslims oppose terror but you claim that most Muslims rejoice at 9/11 because they see America as an imperialist oppressor. If seeing an enemy as an oppressor is enough to murder innocents indiscriminately, how can you dare protest the US retaliating by invading Afghanistan and Iraq? What would be wrong it the US nuked Mecca or if Israel carpet bombed Gaza?

Bar Kochba said...

About personal attacks:
I seem to remember being called "a Zionist blogger endowed with room temperature IQ" and "a stupid, stupid stupid fucking stupid hateful pro war zionists". (I really love the choice of adjectives- great vocabulary.) And also "bigoted, stupid fucking asshole". Nobody here has called you anything even approaching what you have called me. Stop your whining and grow a pair!

Der Baron von Bornstein said...

Ah, good point, you've called me on my own bs.

Bigotry does not necessarily mean racism. All racism is bigotry, not all bigotry is racism.

From Wikipedia:
A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own.

Now, one can say that I in all my 'intolerance' of Zionism and militarism am a bigot.

However. In its original usage, the word prejudice referred to a prejudgmental statement of ill doing, or an evaluation or decision made before the facts of a case could be properly determined and weighed. This usage was subsequently broadened to include any unreasonable attitude that is unusually resistant to rational influence.

We will disagree, naturally.
We will both call eachother irrational.
However, I understand war to be irrational in and of itself, as war begets war and so on.
One may say, but war ended Nazism! But it also began the Cold War, and that began the war on terror. And the war on terror can't be ended, if we are to continue fighting the way we do.
Tolerance must become the norm.

I apologize for insulting you, my friend. I'll be correcting those posts, post haste.

Bar Kochba said...


Der Baron von Bornstein said...

Also, dude, I recognize that there are lots of extremists. But killing them is not going to get rid of extremism, it begets more extremism.
There must be another way.
I admit it now, as I've admitted it before, I don't know what that way is. I understand though that what we have now, ain't friggin working.

I mean, sheeit, I understand what you're talking about, but there must be a compromise somewhere. And the Muslims I come into contact with on a daily basis, I do come into contact with them a lot, I work at a bookstore next to a Mosque, they're pleasant, kind folks. And a few guys I was talking to denounce killing in the name of allah, and hamas, and the radicals that give Islam a bad name. Clearly, being muslim is not synonymous with being a murderous hate filled monster.

And free speech is incompatible with ANY ultra conservative religious movement. Organized religion is bullshit, it has all these power structures that are totally fucked up, and in order to ascend in the power structures, people feel they are compelled to advocate and commit certain actions that are obviously immoral. It becomes less about the religion than about personal power, which all religions in essence denounce. There are certainly quotes in the Quran, as there are in the bible, and in the Torah and in the bhavagad gita that advocate violence. Do I need to cite them, I don't give enough of a crap.
Do I know that they're there? We all do.
Fundamentalism occurs when people focus on those and not the others.

But we all understand this.
How do we solve it?

Bar Kochba said...

A quick note:
Obviously not all Muslims are terrorists or hateful. The majority of them are nice, pleasant people who simply want to get on with their lives. Just like not all Jews keep kosher, not all Muslims wage jihad. However, Islam is the only faith that has a doctrine of holy war against all non-believers. It is the only religion that demands that its adherents conquer the world for Allah. Look at the Qur'an, Islamic history and the newspaper.
There is ABSOLUTELY not equivalent in the Torah, New Testament...
Again, I'm talking about Islam and the ummah, global body of Muslims, rather than each individual Muslim, of whom many are great people.

Yankee Doodle said...

A lively discussion here!


1) The Bush Administration is screaming genocide over Darfur. It's the one place, other than Iraq, that they seem interested in these days.

2) There are big oil deposits in that part of Africa. The US and China are squaring off over them.

I'm planning a post on this at some point.


Elizabeth said...

actually I've read the Koran already. And the Bible.

In the Old Testament, Moses and his followers massacre villages, except for the young girls who they save for other purposes.

I wouldn't go on about how the Koran preaches violence against non Muslims if I were you. We can say similar things about the Torah.

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