Thursday, November 15, 2007

Save us from our 'brother', from Esau

Upon returning to Eretz Yisrael and discovering that Esau was coming to meet him with an armed band of 400 troops, Yaakov pleaded with G-d, "Please save me from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau" (Genesis 32:12). Why this redundancy? Simply asking G-d to save him from Esau or from his brother would have sufficed. The Torah is notoriously concise and cryptic so if it goes to length to add extra words, it must have a purpose and a lesson to teach.

Sometimes, the yetzer harah (evil inclination) or outside forces conspire to prevent us from keeping the Torah outright. Think Antiochus's infamous decress against practicing Judaism or the Spanish Inquisition. Other times, the yetzer is far more cunning and pretends to be our brother so that we will let our guard down. In this relaxed environment, it is much more difficult to stand up for our beliefs or even to sense the spiritual danger.

From Arutz-7:

Increased pro-Jesus missionary activity has been initiated in Kassam-besieged Sderot over the past two weeks, local residents say.

On the backdrop of Kassams exploding into the small city of Sderot, the mostly working-class population is now facing yet another danger: missionary activity. Local residents say, "They are taking advantage of the difficulties here and trying to convert us to their beliefs."

Herzl Shayubi, who served until recently as Deputy Mayor of Sderot, told Arutz-7, "You can see that they have become very active here of late, with large signs about repentance and door-to-door activity with their Bibles and materials... In one case, I physically stopped one of them when I saw what he was giving out."

Moshe Malka, an activist of the Yad L'Achim anti-missionary organization who has family living in Sderot, said, "The missionaries - most of them 'Messianic Jews' - often show up to the weekly market day, marketing their destructive wares... Many of the residents say that the missionaries are taking advantage of their difficult situation to try to entice them to join their services - and it really appears that they have targeted Sderot. For instance, around the country they give out cheap editions of the New Testament, but here in Sderot they have been giving out a very fancy edition, with a very beautiful gold and black binding and gold-edged pages. I went into some houses to show them the book and ask if they've ever seen one like it - and they say, 'Sure, someone once gave us this' and they pull it out of their libraries. The missionaries simply prey on the ignorant and the weak."

Of course, this isn't the first time that this has happened. All too often, missionaries in Israel target vulnerable Jews such as the elderly, lonely Russian immigrants or teenagers with family problems. There have been cases of elementary students bring used to missionize to their friends, missionaries dressing as charedim and infiltrating schools and missionaries have even used violence to stop anti-missionary organizations like Yad LeAchim from foiling their dastardly deeds. In July, the Chief Rabbi of Arad, Harav Ben Zion Lipsker, was brutally attacked by a missionary when the Rabbi tried to stop him from hawking his materials at the city market.

"They have two houses here in Sderot, one on Natan Elbaz Street and one on Shivat Tzion [Return to Zion] Street In one of them, they have a weekly class in Russian on Friday evenings, and in the other they have Sabbath prayer services - featuring Jesus, of course... We have found that a 60-year-old man named Peter from nearby Bror Hayil comes and gives out literature."

Malka says the plight of the residents is very much in evidence: "For instance, on the weekly market day, there used to be four or five rows of people selling their stuff, and now there's only one row. On every street you see many houses for rent or for sale. It looks like a ghost town."

Yad L'Achim has stepped up its anti-missionary activity in Sderot, Malka says: "We have been going door-to-door ourselves, and we're in contact with the yeshivat hesder there, and with the local Beit Chabad, and we stand at intersections, etc. We would like to hold a public session in some protected building in order to explain the dangers..."

Avi Ben-Abu, a local grocery store owner, told Yad L'Achim, "It is unacceptable for missionaries to take advantage of our difficult plight and put salt on our wounds by leading innocent Jews astray."

We are happy about Christian support for Israel but not at the cost of selling our souls. If this is the price, we will not co-operate with anyone who attempts to missionize to us. The Torah is clear that our security depends on our adherence to G-d's commandments.

Here's another story from Arutz-7 that gets me angry. Despite the former Pope's attempts to improve Catholic-Jewish relations, ties are still strained in many cases. It certainly didn't help that the current Pope reinstitued last year the Latin mass that calls for G-d to open up the eyes of the 'perfidous Jews' who are lost in 'darkness.'

Fourteen Austrian Catholic bishops visiting Jerusalem last week were barred from approaching the Old City's Western Wall (the Kotel) after refusing to remove crucifixes they were wearing as part of their formal attire. Rabbi Shmuel Rabinovitch, responsible for the Western Wall and other Jewish holy sites, explained to the bishops that they were welcome to pray at the Kotel, but had to remove their crosses in order not to offend the sensitivities of Jews there.

The bishops, including the Archbishop of Vienna, opted to remain outside the barrier separating the prayer area from the rest of the Western Wall Plaza rather than remove their crosses

The group subsequently canceled a planned meeting with Rabbi Rabinovitch, responsible
for the Western Wall and other Jewish holy sites, explained to the bishops that they were welcome to pray at the Kotel, but had to remove their crosses in order not to offend the sensitivities of Jews there.

The bishops, including the Archbishop of Vienna, opted to remain outside the barrier separating the prayer area from the rest of the Western Wall Plaza rather than remove their crosses. The group subsequently canceled a planned meeting with Rabbi Rabinovitch that was to take place in his Jerusalem office. Austrian officials said that the ban on crosses at the Wall was not made known to the Catholic delegation ahead of their arrival for the Austrian Bishops Conference, which was held in Israel for the first time last week.

Speaking with the Israeli Maariv newspaper, Rabbi Rabinovitch said, "Appearing like that at the Wall and to a meeting with me is insulting and provocative." Rabinovitch claimed that previous Catholic delegations, including that of Pope John Paul II in 2000, refrained from displaying the cross while at the Kotel. While official government publications describing appropriate dress and conduct for the Western Wall area do not include any mention of a ban on crucifixes, Christian pilgrimage tour leaders have in the past suggested that those wearing crosses place them inside their shirts to avoid unnecessary confrontation.

I remember when I visited Israel two summers ago that while I was at the Wall, an Orthodox priest carrying a huge cross approached the Wall and was angrily turned away by a group of chareidim. While the prophet Isaiah (56:7) says that the Temple is a "house for all nations" and King Solomon asks for G-d to hear the prayer of non-Jews in the Temple (1-Kings 8:41-43), it is completely innapropriate for the crucifix to be displayed at the Kotel. The crucifix throughout history was a sign of death and destructio for Jews. During the Crusades, Jews went to their deaths rather than accept baptism under the shadow of the crucifix.

A popular Christian hyman goes like this: “Onward, Christians Soldiers marching as to war, with the cross of J going on before! C, the royal Master, leads against the foe; forward into battle. See His banners go!” Think about the words. This hymn is adopted from the theme of the Crusades- the banners and crosses of JC and his worshippers demanding of the Jews 'convert of die, C-killers!'.

My heart is truely saddened over all of the Jews who have been led astray and away from Judaism- it truely pity them. They have traded in their birthright for a bowl of lentils. True Torah- True beauty.


Anonymous said...

ADL noted that in 1959, Pope John XXIII removed the term "perfidious Jews" from the controversial Good Friday Latin Mass. In the 1970 Missal of Paul VI, which is currently used, the prayer for the conversion of Jews was replaced by a positive prayer recognizing the Jews' eternal covenant with God, a principle to which Pope John Paul II was deeply committed.

WomanHonorThyself said...

Hopefully things are changing Bar..but sigh..those who desert their roots are destined to fail..........Shabbat Shalom and Have a super weekend my friend!:)

marallyn ben moshe said...

oy...and vey too...and my feeling is that it's just beginning...a sweet shabbat shalom my friend...zei gezunt...always good to come visit, marallyn

Brooke said...

Christians who proselytize at the end of a sword (or kassam) have tragically missed the point

Heck, that sounds more like the adherents of the "religion of peace" to me.

Rita Loca said...

I agree with Brooke.
The best way to propagate your religion is to LIVE it out for others to see in Christian love as commanded by Christ.

The hymn is symbolic of our desire to share the good news with the whole world. The soldier aspect is merely referring to the willingness to go anywhere, suffer anything to share, just as a soldier must leave home and suffer at times. No true Christian is going to act in violence and we can not force anyone to convert. It is a personal matter of soul liberty.

I am curious, if the elderly Russian Jews need help, why are they not getting it from their Jewish brothers?

Thanks for your comment of concern for my friends in Venezuela being held by the government.

Avi said...

Brooke: Abusing a tragic situation like the one in Sderot to missionize should be criminal.

Jungle Mom: I don't know why. It is very, very sad but missionaries are abusing the elderly and vulnerable.

'The best way to propagate your religion is to LIVE it out for others to see in Christian love as commanded by Christ.'
That was exactly my point about Yaakov's prayer that G-d protect us from our 'brother's attempts to get us to abandon Judaism.

Deborah said...


There is always two sides to every story! I personally know people in Israel who are personal friends with these Messianic Jews, and I can tell you that the Messianic Jews are very well aware of the laws and do not "missionize" others and they also hold their beliefs as very personal as they respect their fellow Jews. Now, I understand that there may be a few persons who may hand out New Testaments, but doing so is in conflict with the law, but the vast majority of Messianic Jews respect the law! (See the article from below.)

I understand why Jews have a contention with Christians and Catholics and the symbolism that identifies them as such, i.e., crosses/crucifixes. I hope you will come to understand that the Crusades, Holocaust, and pogroms were led by church leaders who confessed to believe in G-d but who obviously had nothing to do with G-d, nor G-d with them, because you and I both know G-d would NEVER command anyone to harm or kill His precious covenant people, Israel. These church leaders were obviously Israel's (Jewish peoples) enemies.

Time and again G-d states in the Torah and Tanakh that He turns His people over to their enemies when they rebel against Him, when THEY disobey and make decisions against Him, not He against them. The Jewish people must ask G-d why these "said" Christians, who were enemies of G-d and the Jewish people, were allowed to persecute and murder the Jewish people.

Having said that, let me be clear: church leaders and their followers who persecute and murder Jews are not "saved" - do not have a relationship with G-d - they were enemies of G-d and His Jewish people. These self-proclaimed "Christians" did not (and do not) know the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; for if they did, they would not have persecuted and murdered Jews, they would have been a friend to the Jews! Instead, they acted in the capacity of the enemy.

Hum?!... are there any anti-Semitic, "so-called" Christians reading this? If you're an anti-Semitic "Christian", you better think again about your beliefs and actions when they run contrary to honoring and loving the Jew.

As a Christian, I won't wear a cross because I understand the association of the symbol with the Crusades and the Holocaust. I renounce and denounce all church leaders, teachings, and members that have persecuted the Jewish people!

Okay, so I understand your contention with certain so-called Christians. But what I don't understand is the intolerance that religious Jews display against Messianic Jews! Messianic Jews worship and serve the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The only difference between you and them is that they have accepted a Jewish rabbi, Yeshua, as their Messiah. For thousands of years many Jewish leaders and rabbis have risen to the status of "Messiah" and various sects of the Jewish community have either accepted or denied each of those those who claimed to be the Messiah.

What about Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson and the entire long list of them (see: And are not the followers of Schneerson waiting for his resurrection as the Messiah?

The religious Jews should be afraid of is the secular Jew. G-d fearing Jews should be concerned about secular Jews "stealing their souls". Even so, secular Jews deserve to be in Israel as much as Messianic Jews. And why should you be concerned about the secular Jew? Because they deny the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and follow after "strange gods" or science and the philosophies of men. They bring their "strange gods" to Israel with them, i.e., the Bai Hai Temple in Haifa. Secular Jews either deny the existence of a supreme being all together or they embrace New Age or the more subtle, not benign, but subtle practices of the occult.

So why persecute the Messianic Jewish sect when they have merely chosen to accept the Jewish rabbi "Yeshua" as their Messiah while acknowledging the Torah and living in accordance with the Torah, just like Yeshua, and all His Jewish talmedin. Jewish believers who accept Yeshua of Nazareth were NEVER taught to abandon the Torah! Gentiles who accepted Yeshua as the Messiah were NEVER taught to practice their faith in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the same way as the Jew, who has a very special covenant relationship with G-d. The new Messianic Jewish leaders (the disciples and the apostles) who accepted Yeshua as their Messiah taught the Gentile believers to abstain from worshipping idols (strange gods), not to eat the meat of strangled animals, and not to partake in sexual fornication (as described in the Torah).

Baruch HaShem, the Messianic Jews maintain their heritage and adherence to Torah! And shame on the Christian who doesn't adhere to G-d's word in Torah, in all of the Tanakh, and the New Testament, but to teachings of Constantine, the Catholic church, and mis-guided leaders, such as Martin Luther. It is the Gentiles who "convert" to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and accept the Jewish rabbi, Yeshua, as Messiah. The Jew NEVER converts! The Messianic Jew has just acknowledged and accepted Yeshua as the one and only Messiah!

Excerpts From

Last update - 02:16 29/04/2004
Do unto your neighbor
By Sara Leibovich-Dar

The demonstrations outside P.'s house began a few weeks ago. At first they were small in scale. "About 20 demonstrators with signs came. I put a film on for the children, so they wouldn't be afraid. The demonstrators left after a few hours, but came back the next day. We weren't afraid. As it happens, I admire the religious people. They stand behind their belief - you can't love the Lord and hide. I don't hide my faith, either."

P.'s neighbors tried to help. In one of the first demonstrations, Zohar Galant, a Dead Sea Works pensioner, who lives across the way, photographed the participants. They were not deterred. In the latest demonstration he tried to argue with them. "There wasn't a great deal I could do. I was shocked," he says. Last week, in the early afternoon of a boiling hot day, a few days after the demonstration, he waited in front of his house for P. to come out on her way to pick up the children from school. Galant crossed the large parking lot that separates their houses, and told her she could come to him if she was attacked.

"Most of the demonstrators aren't even from Arad," he says. "They brought in busloads of Haredim. It was terrible. They incited against them the way Jews were incited against in the darkest periods in history. These people are not missionaries. I have lived across from them for four years now, and I didn't even know they were Messianic Jews. My daughter is in the same class as one of the children who grew up in that house and he has never talked about it. I felt awful, depressed. How can people speak against other people like that? After all, they serve in the army, but the Haredim don't. The Haredim said in the demonstration that Arad was built because of its good air and that the Messianic Jews are polluting the air. But not one Haredi helped build Arad."

Another neighbor, too, Yael Keren, had no idea she was living next to Messianic Jews. "My dog ran off and entered their house, and I didn't see any sign of anything like that there. Until the demonstration no one knew anything about it, so where is the missionary activity? Sometimes on Shabbat I hear prayers coming from the house, but that doesn't bother me. It's not the Messianic Jews who frighten me. It was frightening to see such a large group of Haredim demonstrating here. I don't understand how they were allowed to hold a demonstration here."

H., a lawyer, is very fearful of the Haredi activity in Arad. She is a 41-year-old single mother with three children. She refuses to divulge any details that might disclose her identity, but agreed to meet with me at the Arad shopping mall. She doesn't meet with strangers in her home, she explained, so that they won't find out where she lives. Her children try not to say anything about her religious beliefs to their friends, so as to spare her harassment.

She became a Messianic Jew two years ago, she says. "For many years I searched for God," she says. "In the course of the search I also became close to the Haredim. A few years ago I even became a regular donor to a Haredi radio station, and I wore long skirts, went to the mikveh [ritual bath] and read three chapters of Psalms every day."

One of her neighbors in Herzliya, where she lived, was a Messianic Jew. "She read me chapters from the Bible. It scared me, but I was also attracted to it. It responded to a lot of things that were bothering me." H. told hardly anyone about her new faith. "My mother knows. We have long arguments. She is a Holocaust survivor. My father doesn't know to this day. The father of my three children became very frightened. He was certain that harm would befall the children. He calmed down only after seeing that nothing happened to the children. My brother learned about it only recently."

Relatives who know about her belief sometimes harass her no less than the Haredim. "My son went to visit someone in the family who knows. My son was wearing a crown that he received from a fast-food restaurant. The crown had illustrations of crosses on it. The relative was so frightened that he cut out the crosses."

Her faith is a private matter, she says. "How can I be a missionary if I hardly talk about the subject with anyone? A friend expressed interest, and I gave him a book to read. He returned the book and said he's not interested in these subjects and that was the end of the conversation. In the past few months I took a course given by the Labor Ministry, and no one there knew I am a Messianic Jew. As far as I'm concerned, it's a private spiritual process. If I don't share it with even those who are closest to me, why would I share it with others?"

For the past few weeks she has been gripped by fear. "It was a bad surprise for me to find out that there are religious wars in Arad. It sounds absurd. It's a small, quiet, lovely town. When I was a girl we spent summer vacations here, and when my mother retired she dreamed of coming back here - which is why I came to Arad a year ago. Who believed it would happen here? We know that we can expect more persecution. We will accept it the way Gandhi did in India, with passive resistance. We will not leave this place. We believe we are doing a good thing for Arad. I pray that there will be an economic boom in Arad. I remember better days here. When I was a girl, there was the Masada Hotel, today it's a heap of rubble. In the winter I prayed for rain in Arad.

To secular eyes, you very much resemble the Haredim.

"That's true. There's a saying that we met our enemies and they are us. The sharpest clashes are with those who are like you."


Avi said...

A few points:

1) My opposition to Messianic Jews is that "they sacrificed unto demons, no-gods, gods that they knew not, new gods that came up of late, which your fathers dreaded not." (Deut. 32:17) Nowhere in the Torah does in say explicitly that our forefather worshipped a man named Jesus (you'd think something as essential as eternal salvation would be written clearly!) and therefore Jesus is a 'new god that come up of late', which our forefathers did not dread.
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour." (Isaiah 43:11)
"I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)
"...there is none beside me, I am the LORD, and there is none else." (Isaiah 45:6)
"...there is no God else beside me—there is none beside me." (Isaiah 45:21)
"...I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me." (Isaiah 46:9)

Many times in the Bible He is called the Holy One, but He is never called the Holy Three. G-d is the first (has no father) and is the last (was not begotten) and besides Him there is no god (not an equal or partner like Jesus) or saviour. G-d alone is the saviour and not His supposed son. Jesus, though, claims in many instances to be co-equal to G-d.
“…know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent” (John 17:1-3).
“The Son cannot do anything at his own pleasure, he can only do what he sees his Father doing” (John 5:19).
“I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me” (John 8:18).
“I (Jesus) go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28).
The second commandment is "thou shalt have no other gods BEFORE me", meaning as a mediator and yet that is exactly Jesus's job: “For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). As a Jew, we pray directly to G-d Himself. Why would we need to make a pit stop through His son, to a saint to nudge the son or to his mother?

The whole story of Jesus being a kosher rabbi named Yehoshua is bogus. His Hebrew name was always Yeshu Ha-Notzri, Yeshu the Notzri. Notzri does not mean Nazarire; Nazaraite would be Ha-Natzrati. The Notzri movement (Hebrew for Christian) did not begin in the 1st century CE but the first century BCE with Yeshu ben Pandeira, known as Yeishu HaNotzri. The Talmud relates that he was a sorcerer and idolater who was exectued on the eve of Passover. He has five disciples: Mattai, Naqai, Neitzer, Buni, and Todah. The Jesus story is based on an amalgamation of Yeishu ben Pandeira and another false prophet Yeishu ben Stada who was also executed and the two were often confused, as well as the stories of a few other false messiahs. Added to the sotry were pagan elements like virgin birth, born on the 25th of December, 12 disciples, miracles etc. which are exactly like the stories of Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Mithras... Dionysus also turned water into wine. Couple this with the lack of any historical evidence of Jesus (surely such a well-known and famous rabbi would leave traces) and the Jesus story is a complete fairy-tale --- one which Christian stake their eternity on! I cannot write too much about this but you will find a complete discussion here:

2) "And shame on the Christian who doesn't adhere to G-d's word in Torah, in all of the Tanakh, and the New Testament, but to teachings of Constantine, the Catholic church, and mis-guided leaders, such as Martin Luther." You reject the teachings of the Catholic Church but the entire New Testament and early Christianity is based on them! How do you know that the Church didn't corrupt the original teachings of Jesus too? If you reject their teachings, why do you accept as truth the New Testament whose only sources is the Cathlic Church!? The Gosples were written much later and not by contemporaries of Jesus. The Cathlic Church picked four out of literally hundreds. There are even Gospels of Mary, Peter, Thomas and Philip though of course they were only given Biblical names to enhance their credibility. Christian have no first-hand sources of the teachings of "Christ" himself!

3) I am glad to hear that you reject anti-semitism but anti-semitism did not originate with Church leaders but with the New Testament itself.

“I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan ...” (Revelation 2.9,10)

“Behold I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews and are not but do lie; behold I will make them to come and worship before thy feet...” (Revelation 3.9)

“The Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God and are contrary to all men: forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.” (l Thessalonians 2.14-16)

“The children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 8.12)

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold your house is left unto you desolate.” (Matthew 23.37,38)

Then answered all the people (Jews) and said, “His blood be on us and on our children” (Matthew 27:25).

“But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you to councils, and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten” (Mark 13.9)

Again, the only source of this anti-semitic New Testament is the Catholic Church which you don't trust--- but you are prepared to stake eternity on it!

4) As I have written,, belief in Jesus (for a Jew; according to the more lenient view for a non-Jew it is enough to fulfill the mandante to believe in G-d though it is obviously by not the optimal) is idolatry and service performed for an idol, even if it is all 613 commandments, is a transgression of the ENTIRE Torah. Secular Jews, while they unfortunately do not keep the Torah, are completely different. We have a Talmudic dictum of af al pi shechata yisrael hu, even though he has sinned he is still a Jew. While Messianic Jews don't need a conversion when they decide to do teshuva, they cannot be considered Jews, lose their place in the World to Come and cannot be part of a minyan, prayer quorum and one cannot drink their wine or eat their meat.

And a little PS about the Lubavitcher Rebbe- the mainstream Lubavitch movement does not regard him as the messiah. Those who do are wrong and there is a big controvery in the Jewish world about this but this is not idolatry because they do not hold him to be G-d. But a question to Christians: How do you know that false or failed messiahs like Shimon bar Kokhba or Menahem ben Yehuda are not real messiah and will return for a Second Coming? Jews dismiss them because they were killed but Jesus died and that precisely why Christians DO believe in him.

G-d bless you.

Deborah said...


In point (1), I agree G-d is ONE! There is ONLY ONE TRUE G-D! You quoted Isaiah: "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour." (Isaiah 43:11). EXACTLY! Why would the Anointed One - Deliverer/Savior - be anyone but G-d Himself in fulfilling this very verse of Scripture? You didn't mention:
- And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. - Ezekiel 1:26
- 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. - Daniel 7:13-14

-Matthew 24:30:
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
- Matthew 26:64:
Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
- Mark 13:26:
Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
- Mark 14:62:
Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
- Revelation 1:7:
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

In the next paragraph, you applied most of, not all, the New Testament/Covenant verses correctly, but you didn't mention:
- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
- And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
- 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (John 1:17-18)
- I and my Father are one. (John 10:30)
- For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. (1 John 5:7)
- 8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. (John 14:8-10)

And as far as Yeshua being a mediator, this means to act in the capacity of an advocate, in the capacity of one who presents our cases and declares those who have accepted His atoning death as "not guilty" by virtue of our repentance and His blood that cleanses us by washing away sins. Abraham was a mediator, Moses was a mediator, Boaz was a mediator, Jeremiah was a mediator, Hosea was a mediator, etc. You mentioned "praying" to a saint or Mary as a "nudge"? To do so is nonsense!!! To do pray to anyone but G-d IS idol worship!

Yeshua as a Jewish rabbi who was fully Torah compliant, whether you accept that fact or not. Obviously, not every one agreed with Yeshua, as His on-going arguments with and accusations toward the Pharisees and Sadducees proved. Yeshua really did exist in history - too much evidence to think otherwise.

I, along with many other well-informed Protestant Christians, do NOT accept Catholic church doctrines, which are pagan in origin and were integrated into the pristine, early 1st century Christian doctrines by Constantine in the 3rd century. Some of the more obvious pagan beliefs is that of the eucharist turning into blood during the mass and the fact that they drink it...... how pagan is that?! First, we know that the eucharist doesn't actually turn into blood, and second, we know the Torah says we are not allowed to eat or drink blood! Corrupt doctrines have continued to be added to the Catholic church since Constantine. The Catholic church did not "write" the books in the New Testament/Covenant. They may have transcribed them into Latin for the clergy to read and conduct Mass, but they are not responsible for "writing" them.

"The approximate date for [Matthew's] writing A.D. 58-68. There is some evidence that it was originally written in Hebrew or that Matthew made one copy in Hebrew and one in Greek." (Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D., The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible (KJV))

"It is generally accepted and supported by the writings of the church historians that Peter was Mark's source for the information contained in [Mark's] Gospel. Since the book was probably written from Rome immediately after Peter's death, the date for its writing is presumed to be A.D. 67 or 68." (Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D., The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible (KJV)) "[E]vidence is consistent with (1) the historical probability that Peter was in Rome during the last days of his life and was martyred there, and (2) the Biblical evidence that Mark also was in Rome about the same time and was closely associated with Peter." (Kenneth Barker, Donald Burdick, John Stek, Walter Wessel, Ronald Youngblood, The NIV Study Bible)

"The book [of Luke] is thought to have been written sometime between the years A.D. 58 and 60. The information that is included and the way that the material is presented indicates that Luke was appealing to the Greek mindset. The vocabulary and style are so refined that Luke's Gospel has been compared to various writings of Classical Greek." (Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D., The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible (KJV))

"The Apostle John is believed to have written this book about the year A.D. 90 in the city of Ephesus in Asia. This account of Jesus' life is very different from the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke). The purpose of this Gospel, stated near the end of the book (John 20:30-31), is to present the signs and wonders that Jesus performed so that those who read it will believe that He is "the [Messiah], the Son of God." Each of the incidents recorded in the Gospel of John is specifically included to prove that Jesus is the Son of God." (Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D., The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible (KJV))

BK, given your dates and other books and/or authors, you are referring to the gnostic gospels. "The term gnostic gospels refers to gnostic collections of writings about the teachings of Jesus, written around the 2nd century AD.[1] These gospels are not accepted by the Church as part of the standard Biblical canon." (SOURCE: The gnostic gospels were and are rejected. A little factoid: Dan Brown is a writer of fiction and leveraged his plot upon the controversial gnostic gospels... what a great way to stir emotions and make money, eh?

Now as far as the New Testament being anti-Semitic, no, it's definitely not anti-Semitic. Yeshua loved, still loves, the Jewish people! Remember the passage I quoted to you before about the gentile woman who was seeking healing for her son (Matthew 15:24-28)? What the New Testament/Covenant is "anti" toward is hypocrisy! Now, BK, I readily recognize and admit that there are hypocritical and corrupt leaders and teachers within the church! You've see my stance against the Catholic church, you've see my stance against "Replacement Theology" in previous debates between the two of us, and you've seen my staunch stance against anti-Semitism even though I embrace the New Covenant teachings! So now, I ask you, are there not hypocritical and corrupt leaders and teachers among the Jewish people today? I'm sure you'll have to admit "yes, there are."

Well, then, having established the notion that there are always hypocritical and corrupt leaders and teachers, let's consider that Yeshua openly stated He was speaking to the hypocritical and corrupt leaders and teachers when He leveled the accusations in Matthew 23 that you have presented. You have to read Matthew 23 in its entirety to quickly understand He was speaking to those who were hypocrites and not to the population who revered and loved G-d. Sorry... I believe hypocrites deserve the tongue-lashing Yeshua delivered. He would deliver the same tongue-lashing today to MANY so-called Christian leaders! Yeshua loves the Jewish people. He loves those with contrite hearts and attitudes, those humble themselves and who lend themselves to the yetzer tov to control the yetzer ra.

All the other passages you refer to speak to the persecution the Christian believers suffered from the Jews, which was similar to the situation that led to our debate herein: the Messianic Jews being persecuted by the Haredim in southern Israel. Persecution has been flung both ways in the past 2,000 years. Although to the Jew's credit, they have not tried to annihilate races of people like the so-called Christians in the Crusades or in Germany.

Just as you have adamantly denied the Messianic Jew to share in your "brotherhood" or minyan, so I, too, adamantly deny the hypocritical and corrupt so-called Christians, who by their beliefs and behavior reject G-d, to share in the "Christian brotherhood"! I do not call them my enemies, but the New Testament teaches not associate with them. You know my position about the Catholic church, but I also do not associate with or make pretense in superficially accepting the teachings of those who knowingly accept and teach Replacement Theology. I reject Mormonism and various other cults altogether as they severely deviate from Torah, Tanakh, and the New Testament.

I respect you, BK, for being a good student of Torah and standing firmly therein! But I have to respect you, too, for reading other teachings to further your knowledge, even when you think they run contrary to Torah, such as the New Testament (which I do not read as running contrary to Torah and Tanakh at all - it's a matter of interpretation!). I will read teachings about the Catholic church, but mainly to dissect its doctrines so I might remove any of the Catholic teachings from my beliefs, which I may hold to inadvertently for lack of knowledge. However, I will not even consider reading the Book of Mormon or the teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses (I don't even know what the Witnesses call their liturgy and teachings), nor the teachings of the Buddists or Hindus. Their beliefs and teachings are irrelevant to me as I know enough about their beliefs to know they are as much "hogwash" as that of Islam! That's not to say I haven't read books and articles or watched documentaries that discredit their beliefs, but I won't venture into their printed material or sit in their studies - it's irrelevant!

And, wow!...I have to disagree with you about the secular Jew, and secular Christian for that matter, being less harmful among our communities. Their beliefs are the most insidious since they are subtly integrated into the belief systems of the religious population. I can stand against Mormonism and it's obvious error; however, it's harder to stand against the infiltration into our children's education system of evolution, abortion, the dismissal of a G-d who demands justice, multiple gods, no God, living with another outside of a marriage covenant, homosexuality, cloning animals and human beings, embryonic stem cell transplants, etc. The population in the two mainstream churches, Catholic and Protestant, dismiss their formal doctrines and informally embrace these ideas today. They ridicule or persecute the smaller sects of Christianity that hold to G-d's Word (the Bible) without compromise.

Oh, by the way, to answer your assertion put to me many days ago, my answer is "no". No, Jeconiah was not cursed to never have another rule after him, that was Jehoiakim, his father, who was cursed by Jeremiah. However, there is controversy regarding the two different genealogical accounts between Matthew and Luke. Matthew places Yeshua as a descendent of David's son, Solomon, whereas, Luke places Yeshua as a descendent of David's son, Nathan (which totally removes Yeshua from Jehoiakim's line). The largest acceptance today in dealing with the seeming contradiction lies in assigning Luke's account to Miriam's (Mary's) genealogy, and Matthew's account to Joseph's genealogy. Therefore, if a young, unmarried, virgin maiden gave birth to the child said to be the Messiah (Isaiah 7:13-14, 9:6-7 and Micah 5:2-4), and who was of the genealogy laid out in Luke, then Yeshua's claim to be Messiah remains viable.

G-d bless you!

Avi said...

1) "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour." (Isaiah 43:11). But this is the Father speaking meaning that if one believes in the Father, that would be enough to be "saved" (the concept of being saved has no real meaning in Judaism but I'll disgress). The triune god of Christianity is therefore false because G-d is saying that there is no saviour besides the Father which obviously precludes the "Son".

Daniel 7 describes a vision of Daniel. The first four are "animals" and the fifth is "like a son of man" i.e. looked like a human rather than animal. In verses 17 and 18 there is a summary of the meaning of the vision, "The immense beasts which are four; Four kingdoms will arise from the earth. But the holy supreme ones will receive the kingship, and they will inherit the kingship forever and ever" The four beast represent the four empires which have oppressed Israel throughout history, while the vision of the one "like a son of man" is Israel under the leadership of Moshiach. Daniel's saw a symbolic representation of Israel in the Messianic era, not the Moshiach.

The Son of Man does not refer obviously to Jesus but if you want to play that game then "Do not put your trust in princes nor in the Son of Man in whom there is no salvation. His breath goes out, he returns to the earth and on that day all of his plans are lost." (Psalms 146:3-4) Do not trust in the Prince of Peace or in the Son of Man because in them there is NO salvation.

There is a confusion in the Christian Bible as to whether Jesus is G-d, co-equal to G-d or subordinate to Him. A few quick examples:
“Do you think I cannot call on my Father and he will at once put at my disposal more than 12 legions of angels” (Matthew 26:53)If Jesus were the “true” God, why would he need to request from himself legions of angels?
“…know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent” (John 17:1-3) or “Father, the hour is come; glorify your Son - as you have given him power over all flesh” Jesus is co-equal to G-d.
“No one has ever seen God at anytime” (John 1:18). Jesus could not have been G-d or else nobody could have seen him. These are just some little examples.

As for Jesus being an intermediary, you describe exactly what an intermediary is. The ancient pagans used to believe that there was one supreme being but that he was too distant from the world and therefore they had to pray to demigods to reach him (Hindus still believe this). What you described is Jesus standing in heaven, ushering our prayers to his Father and being an advocate - exactly what an intermediary does! That is why Christianity is a sort of quasi-enlightened paganism. I don't really understand what you mean by Moses or Hosea being an intermediary since none of them were divine and prayers are only to be directed at G-d Himself. In addition to this, one cannot gain repentance by accepting Jesus. No man can atone for another.

"Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book." Exodus 32:32-33 (KJV)

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV)

"In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge." Jeremiah 31:29-30 (KJV)

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:20 (KJV)

In sum, "when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die." (Ezekiel 18:27-28) Only by turning away from sin can one gain forgiveness.

You simply asserted that Jesus existed and dismissed the suggestion that he is a fictonal character like Mickey Mouse without giving any proof to the contrary. Here is a list of of histrorian who would have been contemporaries of Jesus or lived within his century:
Apollonius Persius Appian Petronius
Arrian Phaedrus Aulus Gellius Philo-Judaeus
Columella Phlegon Damis Pliny the Elder
Dio Chrysostom Pliny the Younger
Dion Pruseus Plutarch
Epictetus Pompon Mela Favorinus Ptolemy
Florus Lucius Quintilian Hermogones Quintius Curtius
Josephus Seneca Justus of Tiberius Silius Italicus
Juvenal Statius Lucanus Suetonius
Lucian Tacitus Lysias Theon of Smyran
Martial Valerius Flaccus Paterculus Valerius Maximus

None of them mension Jesus which is odd considering he was born of a virgin, his birth was heralded by the Magi, the innocents were slain in his time, he raised the dead, healed the lame, was resurrected...

Besides Cathlic ritual, many stories in the Christian Bible itself have pagan roots. Dionysus changed water into wine, descended into hell and was resurrected. His followers held him to be a symbol of eternal life. Born of a Virgin on December 25th, placed in a manger. He was a traveling teacher who performed many miracles.
Rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.Turned water into wine.
Followers ate sacred meal that became the body of the god.
Rose from the dead March 25th.
Identified with the ram and lamb's
And called "King of Kings," "Only Begotten Son," "Savior," "Redeemer," "Sin bearer," "Anointed One," the "Alpha and Omega."

Mithras was born in a cave to a virgin of December 25th. He was buried in a tomb and rose from the dead and this was celebrated by his followers with great pomp. He was known as "Savior," "Son of God," "Redeemer," and "Lamb of God." On a Mithraic Temple in Rome was written the inscription "And thou hast saved us by shedding the eternal blood."

Osiris: Came to fulfill the law.
Called "KRST," the "Anointed One."
Born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave / manger, with his birth announced by a star and attended by three wise men.
Earthly father named "Seb" (translates to "Joseph.")
At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple and at 30 he was baptized, having disappeared for 18years.
Baptized in the river Iarutana -- the river Jordan -- by "Anup the Baptizer," who was beheaded. (Anup translates to John.)
Traveled widely, taught men and "tamed them by music and gentleness, not by force of arms" [Plutarch]
Performed miracles, exorcised demons, raised El-Osiris from the dead. Walked on water.
Betrayed by Typhon, crucified between two thieves on the 17th day of the month of Athyr. Buried in a tomb from which he arose on the third day (19th Athyr) and was resurrected.
His suffering, death, and resurrection celebrated each year by His disciples on the Vernal Equinox―Easter.
Called "The Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "god's Anointed Son,' the "Son of Man," the "Word made Flesh," the "word of truth."
Expected to reign a thousand years.

One more pagan Christ- Krishna:
Krishna was born to the virgin Devaki in a cave on December 25th, his birth was heralded by 3 wise men, in his time the king ordered the massacre of all male children, descended to hell, was cruxified and resurrected
and he is expected to return to judge the world and establish a kingdom of justice. He is part of the Hindu trinity.

Jesus said: "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life" (John 8:12).

Krishna said: "I am the sustainer of the world, its friend and Lord. I am its way and refuge."

Jesus said: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).

Krishna said: "I am the Goodness of the good; I am Beginning, Middle, End, Eternal Time, the Birth, the Death of all."

Jesus said: "Fear not, I am the first, and the last, and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades" (Revelations 1:17--18).

As for the Christian Bible, the term 'pious fraud' was coined by the Church leaders. There are hundreds of variations, rejected Gospels, mistranslated Hebrew verses... Paul even admitted to lying. "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (Rom. 3.7) "Though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it so: ... nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile." (2 Cor. 12.15-16)

As a "man that striveth for the mastery" (1 Cor. 9.25), Paul expounds to the church leaders the modus operandi of the successful propagandist:

"I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, that I might gain them that are without law. ... I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake" (1 Cor. 9.19-23).

2) The New Testament is 100% anti-semitic. The Church's hatred came form somewhere and being called the 'son of Satan' or the 'synagogue of Satan' is definitely hateful. Here are examples of the anti-semitism which I can't understand how you can deny them:

Matthew 8:12 Jews cast into outer darkness
Matthew 23:37,38 Jerusalem killed the prophets
Mark 13:9 in synagogues you shall be beaten
John 8:43, 47 You are of your father, the are not of G-d
Acts 7:51-53 persecute prophets; betrayers & murderers
Acts 13:45-51 Jews reject word of G-d, so turn to Gentiles
Titus 1:10-14 they of circumcision...must be stopped
John 16:2, 3 whoever kills you will think he does G-d a service
Matthew 8:10-12 children of kingdom cast into outer darkness
Luke 20:9-16, Matt 13:36-43, and Luke 19:12-27 are parables which speak of
Gentiles inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven while Jews are cast into Hell.

Of course there are corrupt Jews and corrupt Christians but Jesus did say "Thus, every good tree bears good fruit, but the rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:15-20) If Christianity has born evil fruit then it is a rotten tree.

3) About Jeconiah and Mary, tribal inheritance only passes through the father and never by adoption (Numbers 1:18, Jeremiah 33:17). If Jesus was descended form Nathan, this also disqualifies him since the messiah is to be descended from Solomon (I Chronicles 22:10, (II Sam. 7:14). Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Mat. 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30). And Isaiah never claims that a virgin is to give birth. The Hebrew word is 'almah', a maiden, and not 'betula', a virgin.

Hashem bless you!

Deborah said...


If you're going to argue that Yeshua is not G-d because that makes G-d "triune" (which is not what the New Testament supports), then you present me with another problem that's just as big. If Messiah is not G-d Himself, how can I place my trust in Him as a Prince and deliverer? As you quoted, we are not to place our trust in princes or in the son of man, so how are we supposed to acknowledge anyone who claims to be Messiah if he is a mere mortal man?

For most of my adult life I have understood that December 25 is not Yeshua's birthday. So I agree that the date of December 25th being Yeshua's birthday is derived from a pagan belief. This belief was integrated into church doctrine by Rome. Rome also departed from the lunar Hebrew calendar and based their own calendar on a solar rotation. "Scholars debate over the details of Jesus' birth, and few claim to know the exact year or date of his birth or death. Some scholars speculate that the December 25th date of the celebration derived from a Christian opposition to or absorption of the cult of the unconquered sun (Sol Invictus) promoted by Roman emperors in the third century in their efforts to establish a new imperial religion." (

I don't celebrate Yeshua's resurrection on Easter since His resurrection occurred 3 days after Pesach. I also don't believe He was crucified on Friday to rise on Sunday. Some Scholars, not beholden to the Catholic church, believe Yeshua was crucified on Wednesday or Thursday. I agree with Scholars who say Thursday as this lends itself to to His burial occurring before sundown which was the beginning of Pesach, the regular Sabbath occurring at Sundown on Friday, and the first day of the week occurring at Sundown on Sunday. Hence His resurrection occurring on the first day of the week and the arrival of his mother and Miriam of Magdalene at the tomb who had been prohibited to go to the tomb to dress the body until after both Sabbaths.

Your comment:
2) The New Testament is 100% anti-semitic. The Church's hatred came form somewhere and being called the 'son of Satan' or the 'synagogue of Satan' is definitely hateful. Here are examples of the anti-semitism which I can't understand how you can deny them:

Matthew 8:12 Jews cast into outer darkness (Deborah's comment: This is what it is, but it is not anti-Semitic, it is anti-rebel and anti-faithless (pertaining to those who depart from faith in G-d). How does this differ from the punishment G-d rendered in various situations in the Torah and Tanakh - Korah's rebellion? In context it reads: 10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”)

Matthew 23:37,38 Jerusalem killed the prophets (Deborah's comment: this is true. Need I list the prophets who were murdered by corrupt Jewish leaders who chose instead to believe false prophets that cried "Peace, Peace when there was no peace"?)

Mark 13:9 in synagogues you shall be beaten (Deborah's comment: we both agree that there were and are corrupt leaders among Christians and Jews. The Christians were persecuted by the Jews. But that NEVER gave Christian permission to hate or murder Jews!)

John 8:43, 47 You are of your father, the are not of G-d (Deborah's comment: here again, this accusation was leveled at the hypocritical leaders, not the G-d fearing population.)

Acts 7:51-53 persecute prophets; betrayers & murderers (Deborah's comment: see my comment to Matthew 23:37,38)

Acts 13:45-51 Jews reject word of G-d, so turn to Gentiles (Deborah's comment: you should have quoted the entire passage. In context it reads:

45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:
‘ I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, that you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’” (Isaiah 49:6)
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region. 50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and prominent women and the chief men of the city, raised up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region. 51 But they shook off the dust from their feet against them, and came to Iconium.

Hence the fulfillment of Isaiah 49:6 and 60:1-2, 8-12:

1 “I was sought by those who did not ask for Me; I was found by those who did not seek Me. I said, ‘Here I am, here I am,’ to a nation that was not called by My name. 2 I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good, according to their own thoughts...

8 Thus says the LORD:
“As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one says, ‘Do not destroy it, for a blessing is in it,’ so will I do for My servants’ sake, that I may not destroy them all. 9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, and from Judah an heir of My mountains;
My elect shall inherit it, and My servants shall dwell there. 10 Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the Valley of Achor a place for herds to lie down, for My people who have sought Me. 11 “But you are those who forsake the LORD, who forget My holy mountain, who prepare a table for Gad,[a] and who furnish a drink offering for Meni.[b] 12 Therefore I will number you for the sword, and you shall all bow down to the slaughter; because, when I called, you did not answer; when I spoke, you did not hear, but did evil before My eyes, and chose that in which I do not delight.”)

Titus 1:10-14 they of circumcision...must be stopped (Deborah's comment: we both agree that there were and are corrupt leaders/teachers among Christians and Jews. This is speaking of both Jews and gentiles that teach corrupt doctrines for monetary gain. In context it reads: 10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.)

John 16:2, 3 whoever kills you will think he does G-d a service (Deborah's comment: This is what it is, but it is not anti-Semitic. I guess I this speaks to the article you wrote and which we're debating: Messianic Jews have been put out of synagogues and disassociated from their Jewish brethren. Although, no one has killed a Messianic Jew in southern Israel, a Messianic Jew was murdered in central Israel a few years ago. In context it reads: 2 They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. 3 And these things they will do to you[a] because they have not known the Father nor Me.)

Matthew 8:10-12 children of kingdom cast into outer darkness (Deborah's comment: see my previous comment to this passage.)

Luke 20:9-16, Matt 13:36-43, and Luke 19:12-27 are parables which speak of Gentiles inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven while Jews are cast into Hell. (Deborah's comment: All faithless lawbreakers will be cast into hell, Jew and gentile alike! But all those having faith in G-d, and who were faithful to G-d while in this world will be saved from hell.)

A young "maiden" is an unmarried woman: 10 Moreover the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying, 11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.” 12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!” 13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the "young maiden" (almah) shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. (Isaiah 6:10-14)

As to your side of the argument, I say you'll have to take it up with G-d as to why he would give a child as a sign the house of David according to Ahaz using a promiscuous unmarried young maiden - there is no evil in G-d. Personally, I wouldn't dare attribute an act of G-d to promiscuous sex. Isaiah 6 is not a situation which required G-d to do a "work around" because a man's decision or passion left the path of G-d's higher way, i.e., Judah and Tamar, David and Bathsheba.

G-d bless you! Layla tov...

Anonymous said...

These debates have continued for centuries, and the Christians have been losing for centuries. But if you feel the need to continue read "Faith Strenghtened" by Isaac Troki, and "The Real Messiah" by Aryeh Kaplan, or best of all "The Debate" by the Rambam, who was forced by the Catholics into a debate on Yeshu, while no official winner was declared King James I of Aragon(who was judging the debate) privately told the Ramban that if he didnt know the Ramban was wrong the evidence would have convinced him the Ramban was right.

And rather then going into great detail about the exact meaning of the words(which I strongly doubt you can understand in the original Hebrew) remember that according to Jewish law only a male line descendent of King David through his son Shlomo is allowed to inherit, you claims Jesus had no father, so he would not be eligable.

Avi said...

Deborah: I'll let the anti-semitism in the Christian Bible slide since it is sort of a moot point because you along with most Evangelicals and even Catholics reject it.

Now, about the messiah bein a mere prince, now we are coming to the heart of the matter. This what what the Rambam (Mainmonides) has to say about the messiah and his is the generally accepted view.

(Mishnah Torah Kings 11:4):

"If a king arises from the House of David who meditates on the Torah, occupies himself with the commandments as did his ancestor King David, observes the commandments of the Written and Oral Law, prevails upon all Israel to walk in the way of the Torah and to follow its direction, and fights the wars of God, it may be assumed that he is the Messiah.

If he does these things and is fully successful, rebuilds the Third Temple on its location, and gathers the exiled Jews, he is beyond doubt the Messiah. But if he is not fully successful, or if he is killed, he is not the Messiah."

If a Jewish leader meets the geneaological qualifications of the messiah (which Jesus din't meet) and is extremely righteous, he has the potential to be the messiah. If he fights G-d's wars and brings Israel and the world closer to the Torah, we may assume that he is the messiah but only when he actually ingathers the exiles and rebuild the Temple can we KNOW that he is the messiah. That is why there is no such concept as 'believing' in the messiah; he will be a historical figure whose presence will be just as real as any world leader. However, if he dies, we will know that he was just a righteous prince of the house of David and not the Moshiach. We don't believe that the Moshiach wil simply come out and say 'I am the moshiach' and then we will all follow him. He will be a humble and righteous leader and after he fulfills all of the requirements, we will know that he is the moshiach, in only ONE coming.

We absolutely know that Jesus cannot be the messiah because:
- he was killed
- he did not have proper geneology
- he did not bring world peace. In fact, so much blood has been spilt in his name and so much violence committed by his followers.
- he did not bring universal knowledge of G-d. There are millions of people, Buddhists, Hindus etc. who worship idols.
- he did not resurrect the dead.
- he did not ingather the exiles of Israel. After his death, just the opposite happened- the Jews were sent into exile.
- he did not rebuild the Third Temple. The Temple was destroyed shortly after his death.
- he didn't bring all of the Jews keep the Torah. Traditional Christianity actually rejected G-d's commandments and as a result many Jews stopped keeping the Torah.

The moshiach will be a human being and not divine. I have already said this before but it bears repeating that the Torah clearly says that G-d cannot be a man.
Quick examples:
- (Numbers 23:19) "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent"
- (Hosea 11:9) "...I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee…."
-(I Samuel 15:29) "And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent."

Doesn't it seem strange that so many aspects of Jesus's life were mirrored in other pagan demigods who rose from the dead like Dionysus, Osiris, Zoroaster, Mithras, Buddha or Krishna?

About Isaiah 7: The birth to a virgin (even though the Hebrew says young maiden) is not a sign. A sign is something that is absolutely clear for all to see. On the contrary, people scoffed at Mary's claim of virgin birth. It is no proof at all.
The Hebrew word is 'almah', a young maiden without regard to marital status, and not 'betula', a virgin. Now let's examine the verses deeper:

"For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called A wonderful counselor is the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the ruler of peace; that the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts does perform this." (Isaiah 9:5).
Note that this verse is in the past tense refering to a child that was already born rather than one to be born in a thousand years. Furthermore, this could not refer to Jesus because:

1. Which government ever rested on Jesus' shoulders?

2. How could Jesus have been a wonderful counselor when the Christian Bible (New Testament) makes it clear that Peter couldn't understand Jesus' mission and Judas frustrated his counsel?

3. Why would an Almighty God take orders and be subject to earthly mortals? Yet Jesus was in subjection to his parents (Luke 2:51) and had to learn obedience (Hebrews 5:8).

4. How could Jesus be called a Prince of Peace when there was never any peace in the land during Jesus' time and further more, he clearly said, "I came not to bring peace but a sword (Matthew 10:34)?

Isaiah is speaking about the 9-year old future king Hezekiah. Hezekiah is called "a wonderful counselor" because this name is a sign, which foretells God's design for him.

The Lord of hosts has sworn, saying: "As I have thought, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand, that I will break Asshur in My land, and upon My mountains trample him under foot; then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulder." This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations. For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? And His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? (Isaiah 14:24-27)

Be not afraid of the words that you have heard, with which the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed Me. Behold, I will put a spirit in him, and he shall hear a rumor, and shall return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land. (Isaiah 37:6-7)
Hezekiah is called "the mighty God" because this name is a sign that foretells God's defense of Jerusalem through the miraculous sudden mass death of Sennacherib's army.

"Therefore thus says the Lord concerning the king of Assyria: He shall not come to this city, nor shoot an arrow there, neither shall he come before it with shield, nor cast a mound against it. By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and he shall not come to this city, says the Lord. For I will defend this city to save it, for My own sake, and for My servant David's sake." (Isaiah 37:33-35)

Hezekiah is called "the everlasting Father" because this name is a sign, which foretells that God will add years to his life. "Go, and say to Hezekiah: Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will add to your days fifteen years" (Isaiah 38:5).

Hezekiah is called "the ruler of peace" because this name is a sign, which foretells that God would be merciful to him. Punishment for lack of faith in the Almighty will be deferred and peace granted during the last years of his rule. "Then said Hezekiah to Isaiah: 'Good is the word of the Lord which you have spoken.' He said moreover: 'If but there shall be peace and security in my days'" (Isaiah 39:8).

The fulfillment of the above-stated declarations is foretold in Isaiah 9:6, when, after the Assyrian defeat, Hezekiah's glory increased and peace reigned for the rest of his life (2 Chronicles 32:23). Archaeologists have found that there was a sudden expansion of Judean settlements in the years following the fall of the northern kingdom. This indicates that many refugees fled south, thus giving added significance to the statement "that the government may be increased."

Hezekiah's kingdom is declared to be forever, for through his efforts to cleanse the Temple ritual of idolatry, even though apostasy followed under his son Menasseh, the Davidic dynasty was once more confirmed as the only true kingly rule that God would accept over his people "from henceforth and forever." The greatness of Hezekiah lies in his setting the stage for Israel's future. Hezekiah was a true reformer. He cleansed religious worship of foreign influence, purged the palace and the Temple of images and pagan altars, and reestablished pure monotheistic religion.

Just think about how ridiculous the idea of the Almighty G-d of Israel descending to earth to consort with a mortal married woman. Proposterous! This is the sort of thing that Zeus or other pagan gods would do, to mate with mortal women. Also, if Mary was married then G-d would be committing adultery and be breaking His own laws which is blasphemous.

Deborah said...


Of course, it is preposterous to say that G-d kept company with any woman, let alone a married woman. Where did the idea of a "married woman" come from? The word 'almah' in Hebrew is explicit: "a young maiden," who by the nature of the word is unmarried but of marriageable age and to whom virginity is attributed.

The English word that corresponds most closely to this concept is maiden or maid which means "an unmarried girl (especially a virgin)".[6] As with "maid", the word almah does not certainly mean "virgin" but, in cultural context, it would be abnormal for an almah to be anything other than a virgin. [7] As already indicated, the notion of marriageability is typically part of the definition of almah. In the ancient Near East girls had value as potential wives and bearers of children [8] which may explain a recurring sense of marriageability regarding alamot or girls who had entered puberty. In Genesis 24:43, A servant of Abraham recounts how he met Rebeccah. He prayed to the Lord that if an almah came to the well, and he requested a drink of water from her, that should she then provide him with that drink and also water his camels he would take that as a sign that she was to be the wife of Isaac. In this passage Rebeccah, a young, unmarried virgin is that almah and most Bibles use "virgin" or "maid" as the translation. (SOURCE:

Having considered your claim, I am back to my original statement, "As to your side of the argument, I say you'll have to take it up with G-d as to why He would give a son for a sign to the house of David according to Ahaz using a promiscuous unmarried young maiden - there is no evil in G-d." I am saying that G-d would NOT cause an innocent, young, unmarried maiden to breach the Torah to conceive a son in answering Ahaz's request when G-d told Ahaz to ask Him for a sign; the sign of a son, whose name was to mean "God with us."

If you want to hold that Isaiah 7 refers to Hezekiah, then you have to admit either (1) G-d breached the Torah to give the sign determined by Ahaz by way of the unmarried maiden having relations outside of a covenant marriage, or (2) nothing is impossible for G-d and Hezekiah was born of a young, unmarried 'virgin' maiden as the text states. But if your choice is (2) because (1) is out of the question, then Hezekiah, according to your argument regarding genealogy, is without the proper genealogy to be a King of Judah.

Well, then, if I follow your argument about genealogy absolutely having to pass down through the father, I doubt Isaiah 7 is referring to Hezekiah - though the wonderful king that he was! And this leaves Hezekiah's posterity without the correct genealogy as well. If this scenario is unacceptable, then to whom does this passage in Isaiah refer to? The notion of a son being born of an young, unmarried maiden, who is a virgin by the nature of the word, is very supernatural by all definitions and merits extreme attention be given to the identity of this "son"!

So now what? We have to agree on one of two things: (1) Hezekiah was the sign who was born of a young, unmarried virgin and without human paternal genealogy, or (2) Yeshua was a sign who was born of a young, unmarried virgin and without human paternal genealogy. If you come up with an exception to the said rule of paternal genealogy, then the problem with (1) is that Hezekiah is of supernatural birth but fails to fulfill the remaining prophecies regarding the Messiah and which Yeshua fulfilled so wonderfully and miraculously. Not to mention, no one claims that Hezekiah was the Messiah.

Okay, so now we move onto Isaiah 9. You, and all Torah observant Jews, demand that the Hebrew language is pertinent and must be interpreted and understood correctly for one to stake their claims on the language. But then in your explanation, you depart from the precise interpretation of the language.

"5 For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;" (Isaiah 9:5 (

And translates as "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty G-d, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace".

Let's look immediately at "Mighty G-d". Where does Scripture state that Hezekiah's "name" is a "sign"? If you revert back to Isaiah 7, we're both left to struggle with the fact that Hezekiah was given as a sign by his birth from a unmarried maiden, which is understood to be a marriagable virgin in the Hebrew language. If no other Scripture can be referenced, then all of us are supposed to accept that Hezekiah is given the status of G-d? We'll then, we'll be redefining the Jewish and Christian religions right here and now.

Let's look at "Everlasting Father". Where does Scripture state that Hezekiah's "name" means Everlasting Father as a "sign"? Here again, you are asking that we depart from the original language, which is so pure in form. "Everlasting" is, well, 'Everlasting'". And "Father" is 'Father'". Fifteen years is not everlasting! Where does Scripture state that Hezekiah rose from the grave after his death to become "everlasting"? Where does Scripture state that Hezekiah's "name" is a "sign" so he is said to be THE [heavenly] "Father", who is without end? Or a "father" to the people, period?

Now, let's go back and look at "Wonderful Counselor". Who is the Wonderful Counselor? Let's fast forward to Isaiah 11, which is another Messianic prophecy:

1 And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a twig shall grow forth out of his roots.
2 And the spirit of HaShem shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of HaShem.
3 And his delight shall be in the fear of HaShem; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears;
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the land; and he shall smite the land with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. (

(Does verse 4 sound familiar? "He shall smite the land with the rod of his mouth..." I refer to our prior debate about Yeshua being so hard on the hypocrites. The remaining portion of this passage, "...and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked" can also be attributed to Yeshua's harsh words toward the religious hypocrites and is also referenced in book of Revelation regarding the Messiah's second return as King Messiah. And how is it that Hezekiah slayed the wicked with the breath of his lips? But it is I who digresses this time...)

And, finally, let's look at "Prince of Peace". In attributing "Prince of Peace" to any man, it is understood that this "peace" is SIGNIFICANT! Hezekiah asked G-d to grant him peace and truth during his lifetime, and then Isaiah prophesied that the treasures of Hezekiah's fathers would be removed from Hezekiah's sons, which Hezekiah graciously accepted as a word from the L-RD.

So how does Yeshua accomplish being the Prince of Peace since it is apparent that peace has not been granted to peoples of the earth, yet? Let's look at Luke 2, at the time of His birth, and Luke 19, where His disciples exclaim that He is the King who brings peace in heaven and earth.

We both acknowledge that peace will come to the earth at the ushering in of the Messianic Kingdom, after Messiah crushes His enemies - the enemies of the house of Israel. Remember, that one thing that divides our opinion regarding Messiah is that I believe Messiah will be coming for the second and final time, and you believe Messiah will be coming for the first time. But you and I both agree about Messiah's mission when He comes to establish His Kingdom, which is to rule and reign in the earth from Jerusalem.

The ultimate peace that the L-RD intends to bring to the earth is found in Haggai 2:6-9: "6 For thus says the LORD of hosts:(M) 'Yet once more, in a little while,(N) I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land. 7 And I will shake all nations, so that the treasures of all nations shall come in, and(O) I will fill this house with glory,' says the LORD of hosts. 8(P) 'The silver is mine, and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD of hosts. 9(Q) 'The latter glory of this house shall be greater than the former,' says the LORD of hosts. 'And(R) in this place I will give peace,' declares the LORD of hosts."

Obviously, this passage in Haggai is not referring to Herod's temple, which was not the latter temple, nor was its glory greater than Solomon's temple. During the Messianic Kingdom, shalom will be present in G-d's temple, which will have a greater glory than that of Solomon's temple and Herod's. And this peace will permeate the world.
2(A) "Glory to God(B) in the highest,
(C) and on earth(D) peace among those with whom he is pleased!"[a] (Luke 2:14)

28 And when he had said these things,(AB) he went on ahead,(AC) going up to Jerusalem. 29(AD) When he drew near to Bethphage and(AE) Bethany, at(AF) the mount that is called Olivet, he sent(AG) two of the disciples, 30 saying, "Go into the village in front of you, where on entering you will find a colt tied,(AH) on which no one has ever yet sat. Untie it and bring it here. 31 If anyone asks you, 'Why are you untying it?' you shall say this: 'The Lord has need of it.'" 32 So those who were sent went away and found it(AI) just as he had told them. 33 And as they were untying the colt, its owners said to them, "Why are you untying the colt?" 34 And they said, "The Lord has need of it." 35 And they brought it to Jesus, and throwing their cloaks on the colt, they set Jesus on it. 36 And as he rode along, they(AJ) spread their cloaks on the road. 37 As he was drawing near—already on the way down the Mount of Olives—(AK) the whole multitude of his disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice(AL) for all the mighty works that they had seen, 38 saying,(AM) "Blessed is(AN) the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and(AO) glory in the highest!" 39(AP) And some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples." 40 He answered, "I tell you, if these were silent,(AQ) the very stones would cry out." (Luke 19:28-40)

Wow, so much more to address, but too little time for me to write and you to read. So, here, I leave it to you to rebut any portions of my argument above. However, I still need to rebut your argument that Yeshua cannot be Messiah because:
"- he was killed
- he did not have proper geneology
- he did not bring world peace. In fact, so much blood has been spilt in his name and so much violence committed by his followers.
- he did not bring universal knowledge of G-d. There are millions of people, Buddhists, Hindus etc. who worship idols.
- he did not resurrect the dead.
- he did not ingather the exiles of Israel. After his death, just the opposite happened- the Jews were sent into exile.
- he did not rebuild the Third Temple. The Temple was destroyed shortly after his death.
- he didn't bring all of the Jews keep the Torah. Traditional Christianity actually rejected G-d's commandments and as a result many Jews stopped keeping the Torah.
The moshiach will be a human being and not divine. I have already said this before but it bears repeating that the Torah clearly says that G-d cannot be a man."
and more specifically address your questions:
"1. Which government ever rested on Jesus' shoulders?
2. How could Jesus have been a wonderful counselor when the Christian Bible (New Testament) makes it clear that Peter couldn't understand Jesus' mission and Judas frustrated his counsel?
3. Why would an Almighty God take orders and be subject to earthly mortals? Yet Jesus was in subjection to his parents (Luke 2:51) and had to learn obedience (Hebrews 5:8)."
(Your "Comment" dated November 19, 2007, 4:28 PM)

I also need to address your question to me regarding the historical evidence for Yeshua, for which I have already formulated an answer with citations, but as I said, to little time to write and read, so let's bite off only that which we can chew at one time.

G-d bless you, BK! I am praying for Gilad ben Aviva Shalit, Ehud ben Malka Goldwasser and Eldad ben Tova Regev as you have requested. And I will be true to my word in giving to the Keren Maor Foundation and making another donation in their names - I will do it right after I post this. And I ask that others honor BK's request as well and be true to the commitments you made in your hearts toward these three Israeli soldiers.

BK, we have time to continue this dabate for weeks to come. But, I'd really like to take the time to write an article this weekend about the upcoming conference in Annapolis and call my brethren to pray for the Jewish people, Israel and Jerusalem. And to pray for America as well, since I believe G-d has punished her every time the U.S. government has assisted in a decision against Israel. "L-RD, please have mercy on the righteous one in America... Oh, L-RD, for the sake of ten righteous ones, could you hold back Your judgment?" (see: "America - I fear for you"


Deborah said...

BK, I apologize for leaving all the linked references in the Scriptural passages I presented. I thought these links remained "hot" in gmail so you could reference them. I will remove these links from the copied/pasted text in future comments to you. :)

Avi said...

Virgin Birth: The word 'almah' is recognized by Biblical scholars to mean a young woman, regardless of her virginal status. 'Almah' is even used when the subject is not a virgin such as Song of Songs 6:8 – "There are sixty queens, and eighty concubines, and maidens [ (va’alamot)] without number." King Solomon had over a thousand wives and many, many concubines. Obviously these concubines and consorts were not virgins! A full discussion of the word 'almah' can be found at

Matthew 1:22-23 states: "Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, "Behold a virgin shall be with child and will bear a son and they shall call his name Emmanuel,' which translated means, G-d with us." Matthew mistranslates this verse form the orginal "Behold, the young woman is with child and will bear a son and she will call his name Emmanuel." The Torah says 'Ha-almah', THE young woman with the definitive article to refer to a specific young woman who was known in the time of Isaiah.

Most verse that Christian missionaries base themselves on are taken completely out of context. Let's examine all of Isaiah 7 before we decide who the verse refer to:

1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Aram, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up to Jerusalem to war against it; but could not prevail against it. 2 And it was told the house of David, saying: 'Aram is confederate with Ephraim.' And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the forest are moved with the wind. {S} 3 Then said the LORD unto Isaiah: 'Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shear-jashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool, in the highway of the fullers' field; 4 and say unto him: Keep calm, and be quiet; fear not, neither let thy heart be faint, because of these two tails of smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram, and of the son of Remaliah. 5 Because Aram hath counselled evil against thee, Ephraim also, and the son of Remaliah, saying: 6 Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set up a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeel; {P}

7 thus saith the Lord GOD: It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass. 8 For the head of Aram is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people; 9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not have faith, surely ye shall not be established.' {P}

10 And the LORD spoke again unto Ahaz, saying: 11 'Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.' 12 But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, neither will I try the LORD.' 13 And he said: 'Hear ye now, O house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that ye will weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 15 Curd and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 16 Yea, before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou hast a horror of shall be forsaken. 17 The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.' {P}

King Ahaz was asking G-d for a sign of victory since the kings of Aram and Israel were making war against Jerusalem. Isaiah was reassuring King Ahaz of victory by saying that King Hezekiah will be born and he will save Judah form its enemies. Now, since Yeishu (I'll use that name from now on) was born over 500 years later, long after the war, how would this be any sort of consolation to Ahaz or reassure him? The verse says 'behold', menaing that the fulfillment of the prophecy was immediate. Immanuel was again mentionned in 8:8.

It is clear from this chapter that Isaiah's declaration was a prophecy of the unsuccessful siege of Jerusalem by the two armies of the Kingdoms of Israel and Syria, not a virgin birth more than 700 years later. If we interpret this chapter as referring to Jesus' birth, what possible comfort and assurance would Ahaz, who was surrounded by to overwhelming military enemies, have found in the birth of a child seven centuries later? Both he and his people would have been long dead and buried. Such a sign would make no sense.

Verses 15-16 state that by the time this child reaches the age of maturity ("he knows to reject bad and choose good"), the two
warring kings, Pekah and Rezin, will have been removed. We see, in II Kings 15-16, that this prophecy was fulfilled when these
two kings were suddenly assassinated. With an understanding of the context of Isaiah 7:14 alone, it is evident that the child born in Isaiah 7:14 is not referring to Jesus or to any future virgin birth. Rather, it is referring to the divine protection that Ahaz and his people would enjoy from their impending destruction at the hands of these two enemies, the northern Kingdom of Israel and Syria.

This is where the Christian response of a dual prophecy comes in. Missionaries attempt to explain away this stunning problem
of Matthew's complete indifference to the biblical context of Isaiah 7:14 by claiming that Isaiah's words to Ahaz had two different applications. They concede that the first application of Isaiah's prophecy must have been addressed to Ahaz and his immediate crisis. That child that was born contemporaneously and the first leg of this dual prophesy was fulfilled at the time of Ahaz, 2,700 years ago.

Missionaries insist, however, that the second leg of this dual prophecy applied to Jesus' virgin birth less than 2,000 years ago.
With this elaborate explanation, missionaries maintain that Matthew's use of Isaiah 7:14 is entirely appropriate. In short, these Christians claim that Isaiah's prophecy was fulfilled twice: once in 732 B.C.E., and a second time in the year 1 C.E. Problem solved. Or is it?

The troubles created by this explanation are manifold. To begin with, the proposal of dual prophecy is entirely contrived and has no basis in the Bible. Nowhere in the seventh chapter of Isaiah does the text even hint of a second fulfillment.2 The notion of a dual prophecy is thoroughly unbiblical and was fashioned in order to explain away a stunning theological problem.

Moreover, if, as missionaries argue, the word ha'almah means a "virgin," and, as they insist, Isaiah 7:14 was fulfilled twice, who was the first virgin to conceive in Ahaz's time? Were there two virgin births? That is to say, if these Christians claim that the virgin birth of Isaiah 7:14 was fulfilled twice, who then was the first virgin having a baby boy in 732 B.C.E.? Bear in mind that these missionaries insist that the word ha'almah can only mean virgin. Are they claiming that Mary was not the first and only virgin to conceive and give birth to a child?

Furthermore, if they claim the seventh chapter of Isaiah is a dual prophecy, how does Isaiah 7:15-16 apply to Jesus when these verses continue to speak of this lad? Remember, Isaiah 7:14-16 reads,

Therefore the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign, "Behold the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel. Cream and honey he shall eat when he knows to reject bad and choose good; for, when the lad does not yet know to reject bad and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread, shall be abandoned."

If Isaiah's words are the substance of a dual prophecy, at what age did the baby Jesus mature? Which were the two kingdoms during Jesus' lifetime that were abandoned? Who dreaded the Kingdom of Israel during the first century when there had not been a Kingdom of Israel in existence since the seventh century B.C.E.? When did Jesus eat cream and honey? Does any of this make any sense? It doesn't because this argument of a dual prophecy was born out of the desperation of Christian missionaries and essentially makes a mockery out of the Book of Isaiah.

Jews have never, ever believed that the messiah will be of virgin birth. This concept was made up by early Christian in order for pagans to feel more comfortable with their new religion. Think about it: the Almighty G-d of Israel impregnating a mortal woman (committing adultery since she was married) and their offspring a demigod! This is what Zeus or other pagan gods would do!

Isaiah 11: This is no longer refering to Hezekiah but to the future messiah.

Let's look at the verse in context:
These are obvious contradictions to the Christian doctrine.

", the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the L-rd"(v. 2). If he was G-d would it make sense to have devotion and reverence for yourself?

Once again, this is another place where Christians make G-d look like a schizophrenic.

"And his delight shall be in the fear of the L-rd"(v.3) If you are the L-rd how is it possible to fear yourself, and more over how do you take delight in it?

:"he shall not judge by what his eyes see, nor decide by what his ears hear"(Is 11:3) Do G-d's eyes mislead Him, or His ear mislead Him?

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,. and the Leopard shall lie down with the kid."(Is. 11:6) Did Yeishu fulfill this prophecy or the ones in the following verses? The person prophesied of in (11:1&10) must also do this.

"And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox"(v.7) Lions don't eat straw and cows and bears do not play together. Watch the Discovery Channel.

"And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den"(v.8) Are there really? Unfortunately many children are still killed by snake bits.

" They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain."(Is 11:9) Was this fulfilled during the life time of J.c? Surely this was not fullfilled, because 40 years after the death of Yeishu hundreds of priests were murder by the Romans and the Temple was destroyed.

"for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the L-rd, as the waters cover the sea."(v.9) If this was fullfilled then why is there a need to send missionaries around the world to witness to the coming of Yeishu?

" And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, who shall stand for a banner of the people; to it shall the nations seek"(Is 11:10) Did any nations come to Israel to seek His banner? On the contrary Paul had to go all around the world to convience people.

There is no indication that Yeishu actually descended from Jesse. The chronology listed in the New Testament traces his lineage through Joseph, but if Joseph wasn't his father then it is useless. (see )

"to recover the remnant of his people,"(v.12) Did Yeishu bring back the exiles?

"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth"(v.12) Was this possible during Yeishu life time for the people were yet to be exiled around the world?

"And the L-rd shall completely destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea"(v.15)

The prophet Zechariah and Jeremiah also speak about this branch.

"Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, you, and your friends who sit before you; for they are men of good omen; for, behold, I will bring my servant the Branch . . .On that day, says the L-rd of hosts, everyone of you shall invite his neighbor under his vine and under his fig tree"(Zec 3:8-10) Was this prophecy fulfilled? For it says "on that day", not sometime in the future.

"In those days, and at that time, will I cause an offshootof righteousness to grow up to David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land . . ."

"In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely . . ." (Jer 33:16) Can it be said that Judah dwelt safely after Yeishu considering the Roman later destroyed the Temple and the country

"David shall never lack a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel . . ."(Jer 33: 17) This contradict the notion that the branch will be G-d or G-d's son.

"Neither shall the priests the Levites lack a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meal offerings, and to do sacrifice continually" (Jer 33:18) This contradicts the notion that Yeishu will be the final sacrifice.

"for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them:"

(Jer 33:26) Since Yeishu did not do this it is clear that he was not the Messiah