Thursday, February 28, 2008

Perverted Values


Amidst the increasing attacks on Israel, US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, has called for Israel to show restraint in dealing with Qassam rockets, suicide bombings and deadly terrorism. Israel's legendary restraint has led some to call the IDF the most moral army in the world. I beg to differ. Israel's restraint is an example of perverted values, of fighting according to Western standards of "turn the other cheek" and not Jewish morals.

"When you go forth in battle to your enemies" (Deut. 20:1)... What is meant by against your enemies? G-d said, 'Confront them as enemies. Just as they show you no mercy, so you should show them no mercy" (Tanchuma, Shotim 15). When Israel provides the Arabs with electricity, water, goods, etc., it is violating the command of the Midrash. The Arabs who fight against us are our enemies and not our friends. "You are going to war against your enemies and not your brethren. It is not Judah against Simeon or Simeon against Judah such that if you fall captive they will have mercy on you... It is against your enemies that your are waging war. If you fall into their hand, they will show you no mercy." (Sifri, Shoftim 192) The time for mercy is long over. It is time to put all pity and consideration aside and repay those murderous thugs "seven-fold", and eye for an eye.

Some may protest that such collective punishment is immoral and yet the Torah differs on this. We learn from Sotah 11a that Job was punished for not speaking out against Pharaoh's decree. Silence means assent. "Whoever is capable of protesting and does not do so will be punished" (Avodah Zara 18a). All Arabs in Gaza have the right to prevent their homes from being used as a launch-pad for terror, to leave or to suffer the consequences. In the same vein, the silence and impotence of Israel's leaders makes them collaborators in the death of Roni Yechiyeh HY"D and all those who have been slain al kiddush HaShem in Sderot and all over Israel.

After the massacre of Shechem, Ya'akov rebuked Shimon and Levi. To this, they answered "Shall our sister be treated like a harlot?" (Gen. 34:31), Ya'akov accepted their argument with silence, recognizing the necessity of their deeds. They performed a great mitzvah and for this reason the city of Shechem became Shimon's tribal banner. Today we must ask, "shall our brothers be treated as disposible?", will Jewish blood be considered cheap, expendable, worthless? Will the perpetrators of thiese heinous acts be brought to justice?

When the brothers answered Ya'akov, he remained silent. R. Yehuda bar Shimon (Bereshit Rabba 80:12) said: [They said] The water was muddy and we made it clear. 'Shall he treat her like a harlot?'. They treated us as though our lives had no value'. The medieval commentators justify the massacre of Shechem. Rambam (Hilchot Melachim 9:14) wrote: "A descendant of Noach who violates one of these seven [Noahide] laws shall be killed by the sword. Hence, all of the residents of Shechem incurred a death, beause Shechem stole and they saw and knew yet they did not put him on trial." Ramban on Gen. 34:13 differs from the Rambam: "Because the people of Shechem were evildoers whose blood they considered like water, Ya'akov's sons wished to smite them all with an avenging sword. They killed the king and all the people of his city, because they were his slaves and under his charge." The people of Gaza have allowed terrorists to rain missiles on Sderot, violating the prohibition against murder. There is no alternative besides sending the stern message that the Jewish people will not be trifled with.

" For He that avengeth blood hath remembered them; He hath not forgotten the cry of the humble."
כִּי-דֹרֵשׁ דָּמִים, אוֹתָם זָכָר; לֹא-שָׁכַח, צַעֲקַת עֲנָוִים



Cross-posted to Jewish Vengeance and Goat's Barnyard

39 comments:

The Hermit said...

Sounds from the news like the IDF is about to kick a** and take names. I watched BBC last night, and it was all about the poor Palestinians, and the poor dead children of the Palestinians, and the evil Israelis wontonly killing them off. Wonder what the Brits have against the Israelis, and why they seem to love the Mexicans of the Middle East so well?

young_activist said...

"Whoever is capable of protesting and does not do so will be punished"

Israel has killed many, many innocent Arabs and I have never heard a word of condemnation from you of even the most egregious Zionist atrocities.
So you rationalization for crimes against humanity could just as easily be turned against you.

By the way, an eye for an eye makes the world blind.

young_activist said...

The Mexicans of the middle east? You have more pressing issues close to home to worry about, such as the stone age bigots of Appalachia. You were born a couple thousand years after your time.

The Frank Family said...

young activist -- I see you're as cheerful as ever!

young_activist said...

Bar must have gotten bored withou me, he stopped by and left a comment about his latest post.

Bar Kochba said...

I'll be honest with you. I got bored without you. Your comments amused me. Feel free to stop by as often as you like. Maybe you'll learn something.

I have a sincere question for you: Taking into consideration the constant rocket attacks on Sderot and the recent murder of Roni Yechyeh HY"D (I know that Jewish blood is cheap to you but bear with me), why should Israel be expected to tolerate such attacks on its sovereingty and citizens when no other country would be expected to do the same?

young_activist said...

Yes, this "debate" is somewhat interesting. Perhaps a team blog would make an interesting extension of this discussion.

I am partially descended from Jews, I have Jewish friends and Jewish family members. I know people who survived Nazi era Germany. Some people even think that I am Jewish because of my objections to the use of the phrase "that's so Jewish" to refer to things people don't like. The idea that I am a racist is patently absurd.

It is because I am not a racist that I think that the death of every innocent Palestinian in the recent fighting is just as much of an atrocity and tragedy as those Israelis killed in rocket attacks and suicide bombings.

A wise man once said when it came to violence there were to reasons people justified it: as a way of punishing your enemy and as a way of changing things. He went on to add that punishment is the province of the divine and that there are better ways of changing things.

If killing civilians is a justifiable retaliation for the deaths of civilians than the rocket attacks are just as justified as the recent violence by Israel.

The solution to the rocket attacks lies in compromise and not in violence. Violence only bolsters Hamas and legitimizes attacks in the eyes of the Arab world. You don't have enough bullets to kill every Arab you're going to have to negotiate. Even if you don't value the lives of Arabs at all Israel has a pragmatic interest in peace. The latest violence has led to the deaths of more Jews then it has prevented.

If Israel is conciliatory it will undermine Hamas among the Palestinians. Don't try to go after Hamas yourself, this will only make things worse and lead to avoidable deaths on both sides. Convince the Palestinians to do it themselves. Start with a release of political prisoners. Palestine is a small country with a bad education system.

It has a small pool of qualified leaders to choose from. Israel has either kidnapped or murdered most of the qualified leaders. The result is incompetent leadership. A release of political prisoners is the easiest and quickest way to undermine Hamas.

A dovish policy is not only morally correct, it is also advantageous from a pragmatic perspective as well. If you want the violence to stop you must stop it yourself and break the self perpetuating cycle of retaliations. Both sides must decide what they value higher: peace or revenge.

Bar Kochba said...

If a person kills their attacker, are they a murderer? Is there equivolence between rocket attacks on civilians (Sderot has no military value) and accidental civilian deaths going after terrorists who choose to cowardly hide among them?

Liberals believe that history always starts this morning. Brush up on your Jewish history. The attacks on Jewish settlements in Israel did not begin in 2008, in 1967 or 1948. When the Jews began returning actively to Zion, the Arabs opposed it. Hundreds of Jews were murdered in the riots of 1920-21 and 1929- innocent Jews who never harmed Arabs. There was no "Occupation" then, there asn't even an Israel. When Israel declared its Independence in 1948, one million Arab soldiers invaded the tiny country, promising to throw the Jews into the sea. The Rock of Israel stood up for us. There was no "Occupation" then. In 1967, Israel pre-emptively attacked and destroyed them. A victor does not return land in a war.

Israel has tried numerous times to compromise and give back land. You cannot understand the Arab mentality- strength is the language of the desert. It was only after Oslo that suicide bombings started. The Second Lebanon War was only possible because Israel withdrew from Southern Lebanon. And why are the rockets raining down on Sderot? In 2005, the Israeli government, for peace, expelled approximately 10 000 law-abiding Jews from their rightful homes in Gaza, an enormous compromise and the wound still hurts today. The Jews of Gush Katif, against incredible odds, built amazing things and made the deserts blood. The animals, when given Gush Katif, desecrated the synagogues that were left behind and instead of using the greenhouses for agriculture, destroyed them and used them as rocket launchpads. Gaza has been judenrein and rocket-free since 2005 -- where is the peace? Compromise has never worked. To war!

young_activist said...

I never mentioned occupation, although that is certainly a legitimate Arab grievance. Compromise has worked many times before. It is a long and slow process that can be easily derailed by conservatives on both sides. You must be patient and give peace a chance.

If you honestly think that escalating hostilities is going to result in less innocent people dead then you are being delusional.

As for the history you bring up: there is much pain on both sides, Jews massacared Arabs just as Arabs murdered Jews, its time to bury the hatchet and move on. Are you seriously fighting for anything other then revenge and blood lust?

The ideology that you preach is the same as the ideology of Hamas, the only diffrence is the banner under which you rally.

IDF soldiers have intentionaly killed civilians this is a proven fact and is no diffrent from what Hamas is doing. Even if the civilians were not killed intentionaly so long as Israel initiated military action knowing that there would be substantial civilian casulties it is responsible for its actions.

Calling the Arabs animals shows a shallow racist ideology.

young_activist said...

The way forward does not lie in a history of pass grievences, bringing them up only shows that you lust for revenge, rather the way forward lies in cooperation and compromise. There is much pain on both sides. That needs to be forgiven and left in the past.

I'll ask you again: what do you want more, peace or revenge?

Bar Kochba said...

During WWII, should the Allies have bombed Germany, knowing full well that there would be civilains casulaties? Given that the stakes are just as high for Israel today, this is a valid question.

Comparing me to Hamas is reprehensible. The IDF has NEVER intentionally killed civilians and whenver civilians have been killed, it is because terrorists hid among them. The ones that you should condemn are the cowardly terrorists who place themselves in hospitals, schools or daycares. The onus is on them to stop firing at Israel. Israel's priority is to its citizens and the others can go to hell. I don't seem to recall a time when the Jews just decided to kill every Arab that they could get their hands on, though the cries of "itbach al-yahud" have reverberated across the land many times.

I do not bring up these Arab attrocities for sympathy. Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Israel has tried to compromise before- what do you think the 2005 Gaza pullout was? What did we get in return? Rockets! Israel has given the Arabs tons of weapons and goods and released hundreds of prisoners. They have gone back to terrorizing and handfuls of Jews have been killed with the very weapons that Israel gave the Arabs. What does Israel have to show for its "good-will" gestures? Only dead Jews!

And I'll answer your question: Zionism's goal is to have a Jewish state, peace or no prace. Nobody wants peace more than me but I want a Jewish peace, one that will only come about by expelling our foes, settling every inch of our land and fulfilling our Jewish destiny. And revenge isn't so bad either.

(Psalms 58:11-12): The righteous man shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance. He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. Men shall say, "Verily there is a reward for the righteous. Verily there is a G-d Who judges on earth."

watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LWC_7kTeWc

young_activist said...

And by a Jewish state do you mean a nation that belongs not to its citizens but to the Jewish people, a nation were non-Jews who aren't expelled are second class non-citizens, and a nation were religous law is the law of the land?

Bar Kochba said...

A Jewish state is a democratic country for Jews only, where non-Jews who accept Jewish sovereignty have human and property rights but no political rights, based on Jewish pride and identity but no religious coercion. The Land of Israel for the Nation of Israel, according to the Torah of Israel.

young_activist said...

So you support religous rule and you think that non-Jews are inferior in Israel?

Bar Kochba said...

I said no religious coercion. Address the previous topic and we'll get to that later.

young_activist said...

"The Land of Israel for the Nation of Israel, according to the Torah of Israel."
Sounds like a call for Jewish Sharia to me.

young_activist said...

No killings of Arabs?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/17/newsid_2519000/2519637.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks_during_the_1930s
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407072.htm

Bar Kochba said...

The only link that worked was the last one about the Expulsion of Lydda and Ramleh. First of all, most of the Arabs that fled during the War of Independence did so at the behest of the invading Arabs who promised that they would return once the Jews were gone. Thank G-d, such a thng never happened. And of course, I wish that the Israeli government would have the guts to expel the rest of the Arabs today. In war people get killed. During the war of Independence, one million Arab soldiers from 6 countries attacked the fledgling state of 600 000, fresh from the fires of the Holocaust. They lost. They were killed. Life goes on.

Let's look at the situation today. Sderot is a town and not a military site. Hamas fires rockets at civilians. A few days ago, a father of 4 at a college was murdered and a few weeks ago, a young boy lost his legs. Why? Their only crime was being Jews. Israel retaliates in the same way that someone who is raped will fight against their attacker. Civilians have been killed only because terrorists hide among them. The repsonsibility is on the Arabs and not on Israel. No wonder you are not a military strategist: your plan is that whenever attacked or bombarded, Israel should give land up or compromise with the Arabs. And where does it end? One does not negotiate with terrorists; one hunts them down, crushes them and kills them like vermin.

young_activist said...

Here are the other two broken up
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/septe
mber/17/newsid_2519000/2519637.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks_during_
the_1930s

young_activist said...

If you wanted to talk only about what is going on right now then why did you bring up things that were in the past?

Israel does not need to invade Gaza and kill Palestinians in order to make them stop firing rockets. To begin with that is an inefectual policy, for every fighter you kill you will recruit ten new ones, it will only result in more deaths on both sides. However, you could accept the longstanding Hamas offer for a cease fire (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?
pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=
1189411457380). In fact if your concern truly was stopping the rockets why do you not support accepting a cease fire? That would be a lot easier and would be better on the PR front then invading Gaza.

young_activist said...

The first war against Israel was lost by states, not a racial group. I am glad to see that you finally do concede that many Arabs were forcibly evicted by Israel. However, saying that Israel has a right to drive members of a racial group from their lands becuase it won a war against other members of that racial group over sixty years ago is simply absurd. It even contradicts earlier statements from you about allowing people other then Jews to live in Irael with religous rights so long as they paid taxes and had no other rights (a Jewish version of a dhimmi system I guess).

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Bar Kochba said...

I'm not sure of your point in bringing up the Sabra and Shatilla massacres. Goyim kill goyim and the Jews are blamed. Well, we do kill Christian babies for matzvah and poison the wells, so it can't be that far off.

"To begin with that is an inefectual policy, for every fighter you kill they will recruit ten new ones, it will only result in more deaths on both sides."
Imagine if the Allied argument went like that: For every Nazi you kill, they will recruit ten more, it will result in more deaths on both sides. So the solution is only death on the Jewish side! We will kill the terrorists, and if there are ten more, we will kill them, and then a hundred more... History has shown that whenever Israel has retaliated harshly, attacks have stopped and that compromise only encourages the Arabs.

YA, you are beyond naive. Make peace with Hamas? Y'mean the organization whose Charter says that "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

or

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

or

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

or

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

They have made their genocidal intent quite clear. And the Arabic word that Hamas uses for cease-fire, "hudna" is very loaded. Hudna has a distinct meaning to Islamic fundamentalists, well-versed in their history: The prophet Mohammad struck a legendary, ten-year hudna with the Quraysh tribe that controlled Mecca in the seventh century. Over the following two years, Mohammad rearmed and took advantage of a minor Quraysh infraction to break the hudna and launch the full conquest of Mecca, the holiest city in Islam.

When Yassir Arafat infamously invoked Mohammad's hudna in 1994 to describe his own Oslo commitments "on the road to Jerusalem," the implication was clear. As Mideast expert Daniel Pipes explained, Arafat was asserting to his Islamic brethren that he will, "when his circumstances change for the better, take advantage of some technicality to tear up existing accords and launch a military assault on Israel." Indeed, this is precisely what occurred in Sept. 2000 when Arafat & Co. launched a terror assault upon Israeli citizens.

Islamic law permits Muslim jihadists to break alliances with the Infidels when they gain the upper hand, to spread Islam.

And you do not see the glaring contradictions between a Jewish state and Arab citizens: what wil happen if they become the majority and vote to turn Israel into Fakestine? (But this is a discussion for another time).

young_activist said...

The situation in Palestine is much different from the situation in Nazi Germany. Conservatives are fond of brining up World War II and trying to tie in to whatever war they are presently advocating for the simple reason that it is one of the few wars that most liberals (myself included) feel was justified. From a demographic standpoint Hamas is a minority movement that has non Hamas followers who can be converted. Every military defeat for Hamas is a propaganda victory. Every military victory is a victory, I have said before and I will say against Hamas is like the Hydra you cannot destroy it with force, you have to undermine it through other means. Of course I don't think you should be talking much about Nazis with Israel's deputy defense minister calling for a Holocaust against the Arabs.

As for whether or not Hamas would honor a cease fire. The idea that you should not try at peace because somewhere down the road it might fail is simply absurd. You can cross that bridge when you get there and you would do so with much more moral authority. You say that Hamas would only wait until it had the upper hand in order to strike at Israel, but you know that Hamas will never be more powerful then Israel militarily and you know that a long term peace will undermine Hamas's political support.

I don't see a contradiction because I don't think of states as Jewish or Arab. Every nation belongs to its citizens and not to a racial group.

Sabra and Shatilla was made possible only by Sharon orders. He allowed it to happen, he logistically aided its execution. Simply because he did not physically do the murdering does not mean he is absolved of responsibility.

I thought we had gotten passed petty allegations of anti-Semitism, repeating them only reinforces the notion that your case is to weak to stand on its own without a diversion.

Bar Kochba said...

Did you totally miss the parts of Hamas' charter which call for the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jewish People, quoting the Islamic hadith. (I'm very, very serious. Look it up.) Why should Israel be expected to negotiate with an organization that wants to kill us? Until Hamas removes those parts of its Charter and explicitly renounces genocide of the Jewish Nation, there can be no negotiation or even recognition. Literally hundreds of Jews have been sacrificed at the altar of Islamic peace, even during the hudna. Hamas is not a reliable partner. This is not a hypothetical situation- this has happened in the past and will happen again.

Israel had allowed the Phalange to enter the camps as part of a plan to transfer authority to the Lebanese, and accepted responsibility for that decision. The Kahan Commission of Inquiry, formed by the Israeli government in response to public outrage and grief, found that Israel was indirectly responsible for not anticipating the possibility of Phalangist violence. Israel instituted the panel's recommendations, including the dismissal of Gen. Raful Eitan, the Army Chief of Staff. Defense Minister Ariel Sharon resigned.

The Kahan Commission, declared former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, was "a great tribute to Israeli democracy....There are very few governments in the world that one can imagine making such a public investigation of such a difficult and shameful episode."

Ironically, while 300,000 Israelis demonstrated in Israel to protest the killings, little or no reaction occurred in the Arab world. Outside the Middle East, a major international outcry against Israel erupted over the massacres. The Phalangists, who perpetrated the crime, were spared the brunt of the condemnations for it.

By contrast, few voices were raised in May 1985, when Muslim militiamen attacked the Shatila and Burj-el Barajneh Palestinian refugee camps. According to UN officials, 635 were killed and 2,500 wounded. During a two-year battle between the Syrian-backed Shiite Amal militia and the PLO, more than 2,000, including many civilians, were reportedly killed. No outcry was directed at the PLO or the Syrians and their allies over the slaughter. International reaction was also muted in October 1990 when Syrian forces overran Christian-controlled areas of Lebanon. In the eight-hour clash, 700 Christians were killed-the worst single battle of Lebanon's Civil War.

I don't mean to say that every criticism of Israel is anti-semitic, becasue every democracy should be critcized, or that you are because you are simply naive and foolish, but applying a double standard to Israel is anti-semitic. The world is in an uproar now that Israel is defending itself against Arab aggression.

Of course, there is an intense contradiction between a Jewish state and Arab citizens. Can any Arab dance on Independence Day and celebrate the Jewish defeat of his brethren? Can an Arab sing the national anthem which speaks of "the Jewish soul yearning", when he has no Jewish soul and has not yearned for 2000 years to return? The Jewish Dream is his nightmare! Can he be expected to join the army and fight against his fellow Arabs? How should he relate to a state whose language, religion, history and culture is different than his own and that he feels belongs to him and that it was stolen? An Arab's national aspirations cannnot be bought for indoor plumbing or higher living standards. It is for this reason that hundreds have committed terrorist attacks against the state and why a number of "Israeli"-Arab Members of Knesset have supported Hizbullah and Hamas. An Arab MK has even said that he does not sing "Hatikvah!". Simply put, they are not just Israelis of a different faith.

young_activist said...

From reading my blog you should know thay I don't single out Israel for condemnation.

With regard to Sabra and Shatilla: Sharon didn't even resign from the cabinet, his actions in any other democratic nation would have resulted in a war crimes tribunal. I am critical of atrocities commited by parties other then Israel, however the excuse that everyone else is doing it is no excuse at all, it is just a diversion.

Why should Israel negotiate with Hamas? For peace. Its not like Israel loses anything if Hamas goes back on there word. Its an arrangement with little if any downside.

Your comments about a Palestinian not wanting to be part of a Jewish state are probably the most inteligent words you have ever written. That is why Israel must not be a Jewish state, but rather a state for all of her people.

Bar Kochba said...

YA, you are too smart to be this stupid. It is a mere 60 years since the Holocaust and the world was silent as the Jews were burning. (I am not justifying Israel by the Holocaust. See my post 'Our Only Claim' http://masada1234.blogspot.com/2007/07/our-only-claim.html). We lived under the wonderful hospitality of the goyim for 2000 years and enjoyed such wonderful treats like pogroms, Crusades, Inquisitions, massacres, oppressions, ghettos, blood libels, jihads, etc. Zionism is telling the world 'thanks, but no thanks'. We will not return to exile no matter what. We have been returned to our land and a nation that has prayed, wept, mourned and yearned for 2000 years for Zion, that swore "if I forget thee O Jerusalem", that never forget its homeland, will NEVER be torn away from it again. Israel is our guarantee against pogroms today. Don't fool yourself into thinking that anti-semitism has disappeared. In my town, in the past few years, a Jewish elementary school was firebombed, as well as a yeshiva, a yeshiva student beaten up, Jewish community center also firebombed and 15 000 people marched downtown in support of Hizbullah. The world has not changed a bit. 60 years ago, the call was "Jews, to Palestine!" and now the world says, "Jews, out of Palestine!". No matter what we do, where we are, we are hated. We are not going back to exile so you can shut it.

(watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LWC_7kTeWc)

As for Hamas, Israel has everything to lose by negotiating with Hamas and nothing to gain. Many Jews have been killed in suicide bombings and rocket attacks during the hudna. Their aim is to kill us and they have said so numerous times. When your enemy says something, believe him.

young_activist said...

I am not saying that anyone should be forced or even encouraged to leave their homes, as you should know by now that is the exact opposite of what I stand for. I don't hate the Jews and I don't know many people who do, I'm not saying anti-semetism doesn't exist, but I do think that at least in the west its influence is overstated for the Zionists own political motives. I think for the most part the western world has gotten over anti-semetism. Anti-semetism in the west is the premise for Zionism, so with it dead in the west so to should be Zionism.

It is presicly because Israel and Hamas are in conflict that they should negotiate. Not negotiating is not going to change Hamas's stance toward Israel, although there is a chance that negotiation would.

You cannot hold the Palestinians today responsible for the Crusades or the Inquisition or any of the other crimes of Europe or of the past. I have been very criticial (over the opposition of our conservative friends here in America of course) of those events, in fact Arabs suffered, and fought side by side against those crimes.

Yesterday the world was silent over the Holocaust, today it is silent over Darfur and the war in the DRC. If you condemn the world for standing silent when Jews were being killed in a genocide then you must either dawn the robe of a hypocrite or first refuse to stand silent over those genocides going on today, right now. This does not simply mean saying you disagree with what is going on, but rather taking action against it. Just as many non-Jews worked against the Holocaust you should work against the genocides that are going on right now across the world.

Bar Kochba said...

I am very opposed to genocide everywhere in the world. It is actually Jewish students who are leading the crusade against the genocide in Darfur. In Canada, a Jewish MP is the most vocal opponent of the genocide. I don't understand the relevance of this.

If you would have read my post, you would have known: Israel's right to exist has nothing to do with the Holocaust and nothing to do with anti-semitism. Jews have had a constant presence in Israel since Biblical times, until they were expelled in 70 CE by the wicked Romans. Even then, Jews stayed there and in each successive generation, they sought to reestablish Jewish sovereingty. We have never forgotten our home. Evey Passover seder for thousands of years has ended with the words "Le'shana HaBaa BeYerushalayim- Next Year in Jerusalem!". Jews from Warsaw, Riga, Paris, Baghdad, Fez and all over have turned 3 times a day towards the Temple Mount to beseech G-d that "our eyes may behold Your return to Zion in mercy". The Jewish holidays are all calculated according to the seasons of Israel. Jerusalem is mentionned over 800 times in the Torah. This is the only reason for Zionism- because Judaism is incomplete without it. Our Sages say: Whoever lives in the Land of Israel, his sins are forgiven… even if he walks four cubit in the Land he merits the World to Come(Maimonides, Laws of Kings 5:11). Living in the Land of Israel is equivalent to fulfilling all the commandments of the Torah (Nachmanides on Leviticus 18:25). Judaism and Zionism were borned at the same moment- Judaism when G-d promised to make a great nation of Abraham's seed, and Zionism when He gave him Israel as an eternal inheritance. The Land of Israel is the heart of the nation (Or Ne’erav 5:4). This is the only reason for Israel- without or without anti-semitism.

Your claim that the Arabs had nothing to do with the Holocaust is unsubstantiated and completely false. The Mufti of Fakestine, Haj Amin al-Husseini, highest Islamic leader in the land, spend the war years with Hitler in Berlin. He toured Auschwitz and wanted to construct a death camp in Shechem (Nablus). "Arise, o sons of Arabia," he exhorted his avid pro-Nazi followers. "Fight for your sacred rights. Slaughter Jews wherever you find them. Their spilled blood pleases Allah, our history and religion. That will save our honor."

Husseini was in charge of pro-German and antisemitic propaganda for Arabs and Moslems everywhere. He recruited Bosnians and other Moslem volunteers, who were to cleanse newly-occupied areas of "hostile elements," concentrate Jews for transport, and operate the projected death machine in Palestine - in the manner Ukrainians did the dirty work in Eastern Europe.

The SS interest in the mufti preceded the war. It financed his uprising here between 1936-39. In 1937, Adolf Eichmann visited this country to reconnoiter the Zionist endeavor and meet the mufti, but the British allowed him only a 48-hour stay. Eventually Himmler introduced Husseini to Eichmann. Thereafter the mufti became a frequent caller at Eichmann's office. The two got along famously. They shared the goal of exterminating all Middle Eastern Jews.

This is backed by ample documentation from the Nuremberg and Eichmann trials.

At the end of 1942, Eichmann ordered 10,000 Jewish children sent from Poland to Theresienstadt. The Red Cross offered to trade German civilians for them.Husseini got wind of the scheme and protested vehemently to Himmler, warning him that the little Jews would soon become big Jews.

The exchange was cancelled.

Husseini is moreover "credited" with having personally foiled any compromise on the fate of Hungarian Jewry at the very end of the war.

In his memoirs he wrote: "Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: 'The Jews are yours.' "

young_activist said...

I never mentioned the Holocaust in what I said the Palestinians were not responsible for, however, it is hard to hold the Palestinians responsible for one leader they had sixty years ago who was appointed over them by the British.

As for Zionism being the furfillment of scripture, you need to study the history of Zionism its fundemental premsie was that if Jews were being persecuted even in civilized Europe that they would be safe nowhere but in a country of their own. You make it sound like some Biblical mandate, as if you had some devine estate agent, but how would you explain the early Zionists considering many locations outside of the Middle East such as Uganada and the Seychelles for their homelands.
Someone needs to tell the ultra-otrhodoxes about all of those mandates. www.NKUK.org.

It does give a lot of insite into your thinking to see that you think that living in the Middle East absolves Jews of all sins. Does that apply to people like Baruch Goldstein as well.

young_activist said...

The relevance of genocide today is your lament that the world did not do enough to combat genocide in the 1940's. My point is that the world is not doing enough to combat genocide today and that is something that can still be changed by people such as you and I.

Bar Kochba said...

It is also hard to hold the Germans responsible for one leader 60 years ago, but... this convo is no longer productive. What's done is done. Let us end genocide today. (Don't forget that much of the Islamic world is planning for a second Holocaust.)

Many Zionists were aredently secular but many were religious. The Oriental Jews were religious Zioinsts as were many of the Russian Chovevei Tzion (Lovers of Zion). Think of the Rav Kook. When Herzl proposed having a Jewish state in Uganda, the Russian delegation stormed out. They said "no Zionism without Zion". And truthfully so. We do not belong anywhere else.

I wouldn't devote any time to the Neturai Karta. They are a bunch of loonies who dance when Jews are blown up by Hamas and attended Iran's hate-fest deyning the Holocaust, along with white supremacists and jihadists. They have been excommunicated by virutally every single Jewish group, including even the most anti-Zionist. (Religious anti-zionism is mostly a fringe thing and the majority of religious Jews support Israel. If you really want to know why they believe that way, I can explain their theology but it matters little to this debate.

Judaism is only complete in Israel. A Jew in exile is like a fish out of water. You bring up Baruch Goldstein. I think that his self-sacrifice and heroism already atone for his sins. He saw his friends murdered and was ignored when he warned the security forces of a coming Muslim pogrom on Purim/ Ramadan. Erev Purim, Goldstein went down to the Tomb of the Patriarchs to hear the reading of the Megillah and saw the Arabs brandishing weapons and screaming "Itbach al-yahud!", kill the Jews. He did the best that he could and slew the wicked ones, saving many Jewish lives. May HaShem avenge his blood.

young_activist said...

I am disgusted and horrified that you would defend Goldstein. He murdered dozens of innocent people. To ask for his blood to be avenged is aking to asking that Saddam's blood be avenged. It is sick and it is deplorable. Even the leaders of the Israeli right condemned it.

A second Holocaust is exactly what Israel's military leadership is calling for, against the Palestinians.

If you are such an ardent Zionist then why don't you live in Israel?

I'm curious what do you think the theological foundation for Jewish anti-Zionism is?

Bar Kochba said...

Goldstein killed no innocents but terrorists with wapons in their hands and "death to the Jews" on their lips. Jews law states that he who rises to kill you, kill him first. This is what he did.

A holocaust against the Pseudostinians is absurd. The term was mistranslated in order to be painful. The Israeli official used the words "shoah" meaning disaster, not implyiing "the Shoah", which means the Holocaust.

I am but a few years older than you and I am unable to make aliyah. But I do seriously plan to do so in a few years. If you're such an ardent anti-Zionist, why don't you live in Pseudostine?

Jewish anti-Zionism bases itself from a Talmudic statement that G-d made the Jewish promise swear 2 oaths before going to exile, not to rebel against the nations, and not "to go up like a wall", to conquer Israel. The nations also swore "not to overburden Israel much" with oppression. These oaths were interedependent. The Holocaust and all the oppression violated the nations' oath and the Jews are now longer bound by theirs. That is one answer. Another is that Israel was given permission by the British Mandate, and the UN and thus it is no longer rebelling against the nations. Ever hear of religious Zionism?

kahaneloyalist said...

BK, and there are even better answers to the oaths, it is only brought down as Aggaditah, not Halacha, Rebbe Akiva clearly did not hold of the oaths as you must know from your namesake. As well as the dominant rabbinic opinion in regards to Eretz Yisrael until modern times when anti-Zionists needed a halachic source for their opinion was the Ramban Sefer HaMitzvot, Mitzvah Asei #4

The Hermit said...
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The Hermit said...
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The Hermit said...

This individual seriously aggravated me, but I'm not going to engage in a long distance exchange of insults. I stand by what I said.

The Frank Family said...

Hermit, not to defend him but remember that young activist is just that -- young. He has never defended anything but his lunch money from the school bully. You have put your life on the line for your country and therefore possess a far greater insight that he does not have.

The Hermit said...

I didn't realize he was just a kid until I actually went to his blog and saw he was fifteen. Then I was embarrassed for letting someone that age bother me.