Wednesday, January 16, 2008

An Apology, A Clarification and a Summary


Oy vey, what a mess. I wanted to raise awareness of the Universal Noahide commandments in order to demonstrate G-d's love for non-Jews. My goal was to show how non-Jews achieve holiness and become close to G-d and yet it degenerated into name-calling and anger. I do not want to ridicule Christianity or any other faith. All I want is a legitimate discussion and simply saying that you are offended does not prove anything. Please, let us all calm down, take a breath and talk. I have no problem with Christians, obviously, diagreeing and I would love to have some Christian imput to have a great debate. But are we forbidden to analyze because some feathers may be ruffled? From the level of anger and hysteria, it seems like I've hit a nerve.

This will most likely be my last post in this series. I would like to sum up and provide my main objection to Christianity. I am done apologizing. Whoever cannot handle discussion without name-calling and ad hominem attacks is free to leave though I would prefer if we could all just talk peacefully.

Yeishu was a Jew, based himself on Jewish scriptures and preached his message primarily to the Jewish people. In spite of the fact that his coming was supposedly clearly fortold in the Torah, the Jewish people as a whole rejected him. The level on antipathy towards "the Jewish messiah" was so strong that the Gospels, which were meant for the Hebrew-speaking Jews, was written in Greek. The Jews didn't feel the necessity to preserve even one Hebrew manuscript of Yeishu's message and incorporate it into the TaNaKh. (If Yeishu's contemporaries rejected him, what additional information can any Jew have today after 2000 years? Why would they accept him (G-d forbid) if his own coreligionists in his time did not?) When Yeishu saw that mainstream Jews wouldn't buy his message, and that the Sanhedrin of the 72 most learned rabbis and scholars of Torah could not find any signs of his coming, he launched into a tirade cursing the Jews and the rabbis. The man who preached turning the other cheek said to his enemies: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold your house is left unto you desolate.” (Matthew 23.37,38)

“Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And I say the truth, why do you not believe me? He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8.43-47)

“Stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so you do. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers” (Acts 7.51-53)

This is the secret of Christian anti-semitism: Only the Jews were given knowledge of the Oral and Written Torahs and of the coming of the messiah, which give us the power to see through Christian theology. The pagans who converted to Christianity saw a resemblance to their gods, many of whom were demigods born of virgin in caves, performed miracles, were born on December 25 or turned water into wine. Christians saw the inherent contradiction that Yeishu's own people rejected him and resolved to get rid of G-d's witnesses to the truth about the moshiach.

He called the rabbis 'a brood of vipers' and because of this, eternal guilt for his death lay/lies on the Jewish people. At his trial, the Jewish mob is portrayed as crying “His blood be on us and on our children” (Matthew 27:25). This led many Church fathers to condemn the Jews. "St." Gregory, for example, said: “Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies of God, haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their fathers’ faith, advocates of the devil, brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, leaven of the Pharisees, congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, stoners and haters of goodness.” None of this makes today's Christians responsible for the crimes of their predecessors though.

More Jewish blood has been spilt in the name of our so-called "messiah" than by anyone else. What began with the story of the Jews's blood oath culminated in the gas chambers of Auschwitz, in the silence of the papacy, of the murder of 6 million 'Christ-killers'. Today's Christians, who should not be condemned for the past actions of Christians, like to claim that these people were not "real Christians". This, however, is extremely self-serving as the Crusaders or Inquisitors were just as Jesus-intoxicated as the most ardent Christian-Zionist today, and read from the same texts. If simply to honour his ancestors, no Jew can ever accept the man in whose name his ancestors were butchered by a crusading sword, may HaShem avenge their blood. While the moshiach is supposed to return the Jews to Israel, rebuild the Temple, unite the world in service of HaShem and strengthen the commandments, and bring world peace, the Jews were exiled shortly after Yeishu's death and the Temple destroyed, the Church was a major oppostion to the active return to Zion, Christianity often discourages the keeping of the mitzvot and Jesus "came not to bring peace, but to bring a sword". He fulfilled the exact opposite of the requirements of the moshiach.

Christians, if my ancestors did not accept Yeishu and Jews throughout the ages saw through his message, why should I be different? Am I greater than Rabbi Akiva, Maimonides, the Vilna Gaon, the Baal Shem Tov, and all of the hundreds of thousands of tzaddikim and Torah scholars who did not believe in him? Do you honestly believe that all of the Jews of every age are burning now in hell? Are the 6 million swimming in lakes of fire while the murderers who believed in Yeishu are forgiven? No! "Thy people are entirely righteous, they shall inherit the land for ever; the branch of My planting, the work of My hands, wherein I glory."

May HaShem send us His true moshiach speedily in our days, and may we all meet in the rebuilt Jerusalem. Amen, selah!

48 comments:

Eitan said...

I'd like to begin a whole new controversy and do it right here...

The Lubavitche Rebbi(z"tl) was not the Mashiach. How 'bout it!? Can we scrap right now? (kidding, kidding!)

The Frank Family said...

Is that the guy from Brooklyn?

The Frank Family said...

eitan -- I left a long comment answering your questions on the last post. It's somewhere in the middle there.

Eitan said...

the frank family: I'm sorry I didn't answer you more promptly. I was away reading @ a coffee shop. The book is by a prominent author by the name of...

...Khaled Hosseini

Anyhow, I'll re-read your comment and answer it on this thread. The one part I do remember is you being very cordial and kind to me. I appreciate that and look for more interfaith dialogue in the nearest future;)

p.s. Please don't be too made at kahaneloyalist. I know him personally and he's really a good guy.

Eitan said...

the frank family: First, I'm surprised you've never heard of the Lubavitche Rebbi. He was the godol ha'dor or "spiritual leader" of an entire "generation" of Jewry. There is a large sect of Jews today (moslty in Israel) who consider him to have been the Messiah. But that's for another post...

As for your description of Yeshua being one with G-d, I lost you there. To be sure, I've heard that argument before and it simply sounds illegite and insincere. Note: I'm not accusing you of lying; I simply think you're not may be interpreting the New Testament the way you'd like it to be (not to say most people don't interpret their holy writings in just that matter). As far as I know the apostles claimed Jesus was the son of G-d. This in itself sounds a bit ridiculous.

As far as Christians trying to convert others(not just Jews): I myself, have been the victim of this practice. A nice, young girl in the dorms of Tel-Aviv U. tried converting me. I've never been a practicing Jew but I told her I would never consider converting to any religion and eventually she left me alone. But it seems that Christians think its their mission to go around converting people as they have throughout the Common Era. Most such convertions were done forcefully and resistance was brutally punished. I'm sure you're well aware of this.

This is the reason for a lot of religious Jews being so weary of Christians. KL is a perfect example. He realizes he will never be converted but he feels sorrow for the thousands of Jews who have both died be'kidush Hashem throughout the Middle Ages and who've been converted in modern times. I must say I disagree with him but I do understand where he's coming from.

One last thing: I linked to you when I started my new blog and have visited you. You seem to have a wonderful family and to be doing a lot of great things. G-d bless you and keep you!

Yehudi01 said...

Eitan, I've tried to go to your blog, but it says it's private. I'd love to go to your blog...any suggestions?

Jungle Mom said...

bar, thanks for taking the time to come by my blog.
bar,
I don't mind the JC so much as the jeezus.
If you feel ignorance is the reason Jews convert to Christianity you should educate them and not bash those who are sharing something we sincerely believe.
I will continue to read your blog as I do learn very much from you!
One thing I have noticed is the habit you and other Jews have of learning a bit about Christianity and then lumping all of Christ's followers into one group. We are all not the same and have great differences both in doctrine and history.
For instance, Martin Luther, a great reformer, had no love for us Baptist either, he killed many of us also. So when someone compares me to Luther, it would be akin to you being compared to a crusader!

kahaneloyalist said...

Not it would not be akin to comparing any Jew to a crusader and to suggest such a thing is despicable. The crudaders murdered thousands of Jews and were Notsrim, maybe they were Catholics, but they were Notsrim nonetheless.

Furthermore, when a Goy, attempt to bring a Jew to Avodah Zara, they are deserving of death.

Deborah said...

"Today's Christians, who should not be condemned for the past actions of Christians, like to claim that these people were not "real Christians". This, however, is extremely self-serving as the Crusaders or Inquisitors were just as Jesus-intoxicated as the most ardent Christian-Zionist today."

Wow, BK... it's apparent to me you totally do not understand the difference between a person 'saying' they love G-d and a person who by his/her ‘actions’ truly demonstrates their love for G-d. Every religion is full of hypocrites!!!! ...Judaism included!

In the name of religion, many men have violated G-d’s commands!!!!!! …Jews included!

I love the Jewish people no matter how they feel toward me as a follower of Yeshua, no matter how hypocritical some may be! Jews can hate me, spit upon me, curse me; none-the-less, I will love them and protect them until my last breath! It’s a G-d thing… totally beyond understanding! The same who spit upon me will I turn toward to love and protect! G-d bless His special, chosen people!

BTW, this is how my Jewish Mashiach felt, too. Though He rightfully criticized and loathed the hypocrites, He died for them none-the-less. …There’s no greater love than this, that a man should lay down his life for his friends.

Do not ever associate me with a Crusader again, or anyone who has ridiculed, persecuted, or murdered a Jew in the name of Yeshua… anyone who has done so and does is influenced by Satan and does not know Yeshua!

G-d bless you!

Shalom,
Deborah

Jungle Mom said...

Kahaneloyalist,
And it is despicable for you to compare me to Luther!!!
I have never tried to convert any Jew. And yet again there is a terrible misunderstanding here, as a christian can only share and show our belief, any conversion done on my part would not even be a true conversion! Which is one reason the Catholic Crusaders were so evil, ignorant and a disgrace, not only to Catholics but all man kind.

I will not post here about this again, I feel uncomfortable with the level of name calling.

The Frank Family said...

BK -- it should be crystal clear to you who is the source of discord and hate here. There can be no discussion or debate until he is removed from the table.

kahaneloyalist said...

JM, I dont recall comparing you to Luther. What you call sharing, is missionizing.

Deborah, a clarification is needed, there is no concept of hypocrisy in Judaism. If a Jew says never speak Lashon Hara, as every observant Jew does, and he fails in this regard, it does not make him a hypocrite, merely someone who has failed in a particualar area. Pirke Avot says the what makes a righteous man is he continues to strive to do right, though he fails again and again. Rebbe Nachman of Breslov, who was one of the most righteous Tzadikim, wrote that he fell a thousand times before he was on the Derech.

If a Jew says he believes in the Torah but isnt ready yet to keep Shabbat, does that make him evil? No it means he is doing something bad, and every Mitzvah he does is something good. That is the Jewish view.

Frank, I dont think BK will ban me as you would wish, beause at the end of the day, all Jews are brothers, even if we disagree we are still all one people. You arent the first Notsri to try to divide Jews, I doubt you'll be the last.

BK, tell me please why do you so wish to reconcile with the Notsrim?

Yehudi01 said...

BK, these debates and conversations just aren't productive anymore. 'A house divided cannot stand.'

Bar Kochba said...

JM: Just to make it clear, I regard your work missionizing to pagan tribes as godly. Christianity is infinitely higher than pure avoda zara, or paganism. The only problem is when Christians start missionizing to Jews, which, forgive me, is really a step down. I don't wish to blame you for these other missionaries and I don't lump you all together. The point is that whoever converts a Jew has essentially murdered him spiritually and whoever does so is no friend of Israel. I am not threatened by your "sharing", neither is Yehudi, Eitan or KL because we know our Torah. The problem lies when Christians speak to the ignorant. And yes, my goal is to educate those who are ignorant. Please, go to Bnei Brak or Meah Shearim and see how many people accept "the good news".

Deborah: The Crusaders read the same holy texts as you. I don't blame you, again, but to suggest that they were not "real Christians" is extremely self-serving.

FF: I'm not going to ban KL. I actually wouldn't ban anybody, certainly a knowledgeable Jew who speaks from the Torah. (O.T. I would like to get some more Orthodox Jewish commentary as I may sometimes make mistakes when writing about Torah).

KL: I am not trying to reconcile or aggravate anyone. My entire goal was to write about the Torah. Why is it okay for Christians to write to their heart's content about "completing" Judaism but I can't respond? Why is everybody flipping out when I explain why Jews don't accept, and will never accept JC.

Yehudi: I'm not ready to silence the Torah in the name of political correctness. If anyone want to debate, be my guest. I will be more than happy. If someone wants to call us names, please leave.

And now I'm cooking up another post.

The Frank Family said...

I am not asking you to ban KL I am simply saying that until he is removed from the table there will always be discord and hate and not discussion and debate. His words are not the words of Torah or the words of God because God does not hate the gentile or tell everyone that all christians hate Jews in the end. These are the words of KL -- Esav Sone et Yaakov, always remember this when you truck with the Notsrim. Therefore don't be surprised by the rhetoric as long as he is around. Nobody here among us is trying to missionize or convert. Everyone here is seeking to discuss and learn. As I learn more about the Torah it does not suddenly make me need to be Jewish. It makes me be more in love with God and causes my heart to cry out in praise as I worship Him as a Christian. On the other side, my being in love with God and my heart crying out in praise as a Christian does not make people like Daniel or yourself feel that they need to be a christian. I have NEVER conveyed to you that you need to be anything but a Jew. KL is a hater - pure and simple.

The Frank Family said...

Eitan -- where can I find your blog?

Bar Kochba said...

Eisav sone es Yaakov is a Talmudic dictum. If doesn't necessarily refer to the personal level but it means that, nationally, the non-Jewish nations hate Israel as is clear from the situation today. KL was saying, at least as I understood it, that we should always be wary of non-Jewish help that it should not come full-heartedly but with a price. I am not accusing you or any other Christian here of this but we will not ake help at the expense of our souls, of missionizing. Please answer this: Why is it okay for Christians to write to their heart's content about "completing" Judaism but I can't respond? Why is everybody flipping out when I explain why Jews don't accept, and will never accept JC? Christians speak about Christianity and explain why it is true so how does it make sense that I cannot defend Judaism?

And KL only quoted from the Talmud. I disagreed with him, was more nuanced, and I responded with the words of the Talmud. And the whole point of this entire series was to show that not everyone has to be Jewish!!!!!!

Yehudi01 said...

LOL! Poor BK, caught in the middle...trying to mediate.

The Frank Family said...

Did someone write about "completing" judaism? If they did I missed it. All research I have done on the phrase "Eisav sone es Yaakov" or Esau hates Jacob has connotations of charging all non-jews with being guilty of hating Jews no matter what we say. This is so far from my intent and, what I can tell, the intent of every gentile here at your blog. Yet KL says that we are only here to missionize and that we are all trying to bring Jews to Avodah Zara, or idolatry, and therefore are deserving of death. I have no argument with you except that you affirm KL for these opinions that are clearly against the heart of God. Where does KL show light to the nations? Where does he spur other Jews on to good works or to praising God? Instead he spurs others on to hate and division. In this he is acting far more like Esau rather than Jacob. You and I have had many a fight between Rustin's blog, Daniel's blog, your blog, and my blog but we have never shown hate towards each other and have never called for each other to change their religion. We have also shared much in common and affirmed each other and showed an interest in each other's life. Why do you affirm those who do not bring others closer to God and show no light to the nations?

kahaneloyalist said...

As always Frank your never ceases to amaze me. I brought sources from the Talmud(its a document that the Notsrim have tried without succes to destroy) that is Torah SheBaal Peh. I am still waiting for the counters to my proofs, all BK and Yehudi brought were sources confirming part of what I said, Goyim are beloved in the site of Hashem, but they didnt counter the proofs I brought that it is not to the extent Jews are.

BK, of course the Notsrim will oppose someone like myself, or you when you are feeling uncompromising, they wish to pretend they are part of the Chosen people, as they say that they were grafted into the tree, we remind them that they are engaged in an(at best) bordeline avodah zara.

Indeed I am wary of non-Jewish help, and of course the Rambam in Hilchot Melachim expressly forbids us to ally with Goy nations, as Rav Meir Kahane zt'l hy'd also ruled.

Bar Kochba said...

Argue it out amongst yourselves; I'm tired of mediating.

Partially related: KL, when must a Jew be like the Israelites who slaughtered the lambs in Egpyt, mocking idolatry, and when should a Jew keep quiet out of darkei shalom.

The Frank Family said...

I rest my case.

The Frank Family said...

If you do not wish to mediate in your own home BK then I regretfully will leave that you may have peace in your blog home. I wish you well and will return when the time is right for discussion and debate. You are an honorable person and are always welcome at my home.

kahaneloyalist said...

Oy Frank, bringing light to the nations does not mean pandering to them and pretending avodah zara is ok. It means showing the path to Hashem for Goyim, which is the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach. When I speak to a Jew who has accepted the yoke of Torah, as BK and Yehudi have, I speak in the stronger manner as I have done on their blogs, because when a Jew who has accepted Hashem's yoke makes a mistake he wishes to be corrected, as I myself always wish to be corrected when I am mistaken in areas of Torah. When I speak to a secular Jew, I speak kindly with sweet words, to everyone we speak in the manner which they can understand. As for Goyim, I think highly of Ben Noach and Serbs(we owe them a great debt for what they did during the Holocaust).

Now you also attempted to compare me to Eisav, an aside I keep trying to warn you its a terrible avera when Goyim speak badly about Jews, but again(not surprisingly)your actions come out of ignorace, the Gemara states that Esav Sonei Et Yaakov, meaning Eisav hates Yaakov, what this means is that the spiritual heirs of Eisav, the Notsrim, in their hearts will one day hate Jews because while we may take your support one day the Notsrim will want something in return; souls. We will not be forthcoming and you will take it badly.

BK, I wish to explain to you the Notsri concept of debate. In 1240 the Disputation of Paris took place during the reign of Louis IX (St. Louis long may he rot in hell) between Franciscan Nicholas Donin, who had been born a Jew debated Rabbi Yechiel of Paris and Moshe of Courcy, the Jewish side was forbidden in advance from proving Yeshu wasnt Mashiach. They could only defend attacks by the notsrim. Following the debate Pope Gregory IX issued a bill ordering the burning of the Talmud, and the murder of four rabbis, may he rot in hell forever for this: Yechiel of Paris, Moses of Coucy, Judah of Melun, and Samuel ben Solomon of Ch√Ęteau-Thierry, were those he murdered. On June 17, 1244, twenty-four carriage loads of Jewish religious manuscripts were set on fire in the streets of Paris.

In 1263 the Ramban was pressured into debating in Barcelona before King James I of Aragon. He was to debate the monk Pablo Christiani (a convert from Judaism). The Ramban agreed but only if he would be given absolute freedom of speech, not surprisingly he won handily, the Church was humiliated and was moving to have the Ramban murdered, despite their promises that he would be given total freedom of speech, when he fled to Israel.

Deborah said...

Sorry, I have one more defense... I am just able to get back online here real quick.

Among the followers of Yeshua, the concept of "hypocrisy" is paramount and it is loathed by Yeshua, absolutely loathed. I agree, the Crusaders were “Christian” by name… but not by heart! It is not self-serving to tell you that these Christians were not ‘real Christians’ because I guarantee you, based on Yeshua’s teachings, that none of them made it into the kingdom of G-d upon their deaths nor will they be resurrected at Yeshua’s second coming! A man can dress and act like a woman all day long, and sometimes be the most beautiful looking woman in a crowd, but does his appearance or his self-imposed label make him a woman?

3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘ These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.

9 And in vain they worship Me,[Learning]as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
- Yeshua, Matthew 15:3-9

Yeshua is quoting Isaiah,

13 Therefore the Lord said:
“ Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work
Among this people,
A marvelous work and a wonder;
For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden.”
15 Woe to those who seek deep to hide their counsel far from the LORD,
And their works are in the dark;
They say, “Who sees us?” and, “Who knows us?”
16 Surely you have things turned around!
17 Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay;
18 For shall the thing made say of him who made it,
19 “ He did not make me”?
20 Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it,
21 “ He has no understanding”?
- Isaiah 29:13-16

Perhaps rabbinical Judaism does not acknowledge the notion of “hypocrisy,” but Yeshua, a Karaite Jew, did! I imagine today’s Karaite Jew acknowledges the notion of hypocrisy as well. As a matter of fact, this is this passage in Isaiah is the cornerstone of their belief and their stand against rabbinical Judaism. So much for the argument between Rabbi Joshua and Rabbi Eleazar in the mind of the Karaite.

Big Daddy Jew said...

Deborah, Yeshua wasn't a Kairite Jew. He believed in and quoted the Oral Torah. I agree with your other points, however.

Patrick said...

Hi Bar,
I left only one other post, but I think what is the crux of the argument for christians and maybe for most religions in the world is what is sin and how does it keep us from G-d. For a Christian it is the belief that Yeshua has taken on the burden of our sins. That is why we refer to him as the lamb of G-d. Just like a temple sacrifice, the sins are transferred to him and teh soul is "cleansed". At the time (or untimely) point of our deaths our souls rejoin with G-d. The sin that we carry with us are weights on the soul keeping us "out of tune" with G-d. With the relief of sin from us our souls are in perfect harmony with G-d. Before anyone claims that a sociopath has a free path, maybe they are tuned wrong, just like someone would say they just aren't right. Sorry for the rambling, but I think it is probably too big a subject for one post. Food for thought.

Kl- I hope you keep on posting, an idea (see above) is not really good until it has been hashed out and I know that mine has a lot of holes, but I can't be certain until it is tested and the only way you can do that is pounding the heck out of it with the hammer of truth and argue until the actual truth comes out.

WomanHonorThyself said...

brave soul u r BaR!

Nicholas Z. Cardot said...

Wow! It is a step down to be a Christian. We have murdered a Jew spiritually if he converts to Christianity. That is some strong and highly offensive language.

The Jewish people have an extremely long history of overlooking who is a prophet. Your nation has rejected almost all of your major prophets and then posthumously decided to give them their prophet status back.

I believe that some day, you will find the same to be true about Jesus Christ the Messiah!

Nicholas Z. Cardot said...

Also, I think that it is said that you make it so clear that your faith is a product of your genealogy. You make it clear that you believe that Christ was not the Messiah because Jewish people back then didn't believe it and none of them up until now have either.

Why don't you actually do the research yourself and prove which Messianic prophecies that Jesus failed to fulfill?

Yehudi01 said...

Nicholas, why don't you show some respect when you're a guest in someone's blog. You've made several blanket statements without being specific. If you would care to be specific about something, I would be glad to show you how little you really know about Judaism, or your own religion. Either accept my challenge, or go run your lips in someone else's blog.

Nicholas Z. Cardot said...

First, I don't understand how I showed you or your religious beliefs any disrespect. I am being very civil and appropriate. On top of that, I appreciate the candor of the blog author when he states that he wishes to be able to openly discuss and 'debate' these issues in this forum of discussion without getting our 'feathers ruffled.' I felt that this was a clear invitation to bring my view to the table.

Second, I was responding to some statements that were very disrespectful and demeaning to my religious affiliations and my way of life. Specifically, the author of the blog wrote that "The only problem is when Christians start missionizing to Jews, which, forgive me, is really a step down." and "The point is that whoever converts a Jew has essentially murdered him spiritually and whoever does so is no friend of Israel." The author goes on to imply very clearly that if any Jew converts to Christianity that it must be a result of his or her being ignorant.

These sentences and phrases are very racist and demeaning. I was simply trying to defend my own self against them.

Third, in terms of debate, I spoke specifically in several of my statements. I asked for a proof that your belief system was yours as a result of personal study rather than a result of other Jewish people who were 'smarter' than you claiming that system of belief. I also asked for a Messianic prophecy that Christ failed to fulfill.

If I did offend you, I apologize. I say again that the authors tone caused me to feel very welcome in bringing my view to the table and I hope that we can discuss these issues civilly and without disrespect to either side of this religious aisle.

Farmer John said...

Nick,

The point is to move beyond the perceived insults.

As a platonist, I understand the "step down" analogy. It's like my saying "I'm a true Christian" and "others" are not. btw - I think y'all are a step down. ;-)

Big whoop. We all suffer from hubris. Let's talk and find out whose is undeserved.

Farmer John said...

btw - I find this conversation very revealing of the Jewish perspective. And I'm here to learn, not teach.

kahaneloyalist said...

Prophecies Jesus didnt fufil? He didnt bring world peace, he didnt bring the whole world to accept Hashem as the one true G-d, he didnt ingather the jewish exiles.

And, he isnt a male line descendent of David HaMelech through his son Shlomo, making him ineligable for the Malchut.

Furthermore, it doesnt matter if your offended that for a Jew to become a notsri is a step down(I'd say more like a thousand, but thats just a question of degree) and that when a notsri makes a Jew Christian, Chas V'shalom, he is spiritually murdered. This is Halacha, and we have a tradition of a mass revelation at Har Sinai, you lack a mass revelation.

Nicholas Z. Cardot said...

I appreciate the feedback. I am trying to learn as much as I can about your culture and religious beliefs.

Just for my own edification could you teach me the scripture references for the prophecies that you mentioned. I would love to do more research into that. Also, there were a few terms that you used that I am unfamiliar with. Maybe you could help school the new guy. These terms include "Malchut,""nostri," and "Chas V'shalom."

Also, please educate me about this "mass revelation" that you spoke of. What is it? When did it take place? Is this something found in the Bible?

In advance, I appreciate any input that you could give me.

kahaneloyalist said...

Malchut, refers to the Jewish monarchy.

HaMelech, means the King

Notsri, means Christian

Chas V'shalom, is a way of saying G-d forbid.

Halacha, means Jewish law

The mass revelation was at Har Sinai when 600,000 adult Jewish men had a revelation from Hashem. The rest of the nation was also there of course but their numbers werent mentioned, and I will get back to the exact sources for the Navuot Yeshu didnt fufill tomorrow because right now it is very late.

Bar Kochba said...

The uniqueness of the mass revelation at Sinai is found in Deut 4:

"32 For ask now of the days past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and from the one end of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it? 33 Did ever a people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live? 34 Or hath God assayed to go and take Him a nation from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by an outstretched arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before thine eyes? 35 Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD, He is God; there is none else beside Him. 36 Out of heaven He made thee to hear His voice, that He might instruct thee; and upon earth He made thee to see His great fire; and thou didst hear His words out of the midst of the fire."

And if you want a quick summary of the prophecies that JC didn't fulfill, here is a page form Jews for Judaism:

Messiah : The Criteria

Judge for yourself:
Did Jesus fulfill ALL these criteria?

The Jewish tradition of "The Messiah" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Messiah" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah".


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)

To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)

The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy!

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold.

All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.

Certainly NOT Jesus.

Deborah said...

BK and Nicholas,
At the time Yeshua lived, the Jews were not living in exile, except for those who had chosen to remain in Babylon. The vast majority had already returned from Babylon and rebuilt the Temple and the walls of Jerusalem. They did not live in Diaspora until the destruction of the 2nd Temple, when the Romans forced them to disperse from their homeland.

Therefore, when Yeshua came the first time the majority of Jews lived in Israel (which did not include those who had chosen to remain in Babylon (who were, subsequently, forced to leave Iran in 1958)). Nor was there a Temple to be rebuilt as Herod's Temple stood less glorious than Solomon's.

Yeshua was not only the Messiah but a true prophet as He accurately predicted the destruction of Herod's Temple (Matthew 23:37-39, 24:1-2). Do you think the religious leaders thought Herod's Temple would be destroyed? Obviously not since their reaction to His statement about the Temple being destroyed was one of intolerance (John 2:13-22 and Matthew 26:59-64). The fact that Herod's Temple and the diaspora took place says that the Jewish people had once again disobeyed G-d and incurred the curse of the Covenant. The prophet Amos tells us that G-d would scatter His people once again due to their sins and that G-d Himself will reassemble the people and rebuild the house of David (Amos 9). We know this particular prophecy in Amos refers to the LAST Temple and the last time He will regather Israel since the end of chapter 9 says, "'I will plant them in their land, and NO LONGER shall they be pulled up from the land I have given them,' Says the LORD your God."

With regard to the Messiah building the Temple, it is obvious that the second temple had to be destroyed. Had it not been destroyed, how is it that the Messiah can rebuild the Temple that has a splendor more glorious than Solomon's?

With regard to the peace Yeshua gave us, there is the 'way of peace' (living in peace) shown to them who follow Him ("...blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of G-d (Matthew 5:9)". The prophet Isaiah prophesied hundred of years before Yeshua was born, "But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace..." (Isaiah 53:5). Yeshua gave us the peace of salvation as the father of John the Baptist and a priest in the Temple prophesied, "Through the tender mercy of our God, with which the Dayspring from on high has visited us; to give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace" (Luke 1:78-79). And obviously, there will be worldly peace when He rules from Jerusalem. - Deborah

---------------------

With regard to the genealogy of Yeshua:

Of the four Gospels, only two give us a genealogy, the same two that deal with the birth and early life of Jesus. While both Matthew and Luke give us the story of the birth of Jesus, they tell the story from two different perspectives. Matthew tells the story from Joseph’s perspective while Luke tells the story from Mary’s perspective.

Matthew’s genealogy (Matt. 1:1-17) traces the line of Joseph, the step-father of the Messiah. The line is traced from Abraham (v. 2), and continues down to David and Solomon (v. 6), and then to King Jechoniah (v. 11), who was one of the last kings before the Babylonian Captivity. It is the person of Jechoniah that is significant in dealing with the genealogy of Matthew because of the special curse pronounced on him in Jeremiah 22:24-30.

Jeremiah 22:30 says of King Jechoniah:

Thus saith [YHVH], Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days; for no more shall a man of his seed prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling in Judah.
In the Matthew genealogy, it should be noted that Joseph was a direct descendant of Jechoniah (v. 16). This means, then, that Joseph, having the blood of Jechoniah in his veins, was not qualified to sit on David’s throne. This would also mean that no son of Joseph would have the right to claim the Throne of David. In essence, Matthew’s point is this: if Jesus were really Joseph’s son, He could not claim to sit on David’s throne because of Jechoniah’s curse. Then Matthew proceeds to show that Yeshua was not truly Joseph’s son, for He was born of the virgin Mary (Matt. 1:18-25).

If, by Jewish law, the name of a woman could not be mentioned in a genealogy, but you wished to trace a woman’s line, how would you go about doing so? The answer is that you would use the name of her husband. However, if the husband’s name were used, that raises a second question. Suppose somebody picked up a genealogy to read; how would he know whether the genealogy is that of the husband or that of the wife because, in either case, it would be the husband’s name that was used?

The answer to that riddle lies in a problem with the English language which does not exist with the Greek or Hebrew languages. In English, it is not good grammar to put the word "the" before a proper name. We do not use a definite article before a proper name; such as, the Matthew, the Luke, the Mary, the John. However, this is quite permissible in both Greek and Hebrew grammar. The Greek text of Luke’s genealogy is very interesting because of this. In the Greek text, every single name mentioned in the genealogy of Luke has the definite article "the" with one exception, and that is the name of Joseph. His name does not have the definite article "the" in front of it. What that would mean to someone reading the original is this: when he saw the definite article missing from Joseph’s name while it was present in all the other names, it would mean that this was not really Joseph’s genealogy, rather, it is Mary’s genealogy. So, in keeping with Jewish law, it was the husband’s name which was used. We have two examples of this in the Old Testament: Ezra 2:61 and Nehemiah 7:63.

Luke’s genealogy traces the line of Mary and portrays how Jesus could claim the Throne of David. The line is traced until it returns to the family of David (vv. 31-32). However, the son of David involved in this genealogy is not Solomon but Nathan. The important point here is that Mary was a member of the House of David totally apart from Jechoniah. Since Jesus was Mary’s son, He, too, was a member of the House of David, totally apart from the curse of Jechoniah. In this manner, He fulfilled the first Old Testament requirement for kingship.

However, Yeshua was not the only member of the House of David apart from Jechoniah. There were a number of other descendants who could claim equality with Yeshua to the Throne of David, for they, too, did not have Jechoniah’s blood in their veins. At this point, it is important to note the second Old Testament requirement for kingship: divine appointment. Of all the members of the House of David apart from Jechoniah, only One received divine appointment.

We read in Luke 1:30-33:

30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God. 31And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. 32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
The final question is: On what grounds can it be said that Luke’s account is actually Mary’s genealogy? While there is much evidence to support this, it will be necessary to limit it to only three lines of argument.

First, the Talmud itself refers to Mary as the daughter of Heli. It is obvious, then, that in long-standing Jewish tradition, Mary was recognized to be the daughter of Heli as mentioned in Luke 3:23.

Secondly, although most versions translate Luke 3:23 as follows:

... being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli ...
That same Greek phrase could easily be translated in a different way. While all of the names in Luke’s genealogy are preceded with the Greek definite article, the name of Joseph is not. Because of this grammatical point, that same verse could be translated: "being the son (as was supposed of Joseph) the son of Heli." In other words, the final parenthesis could be expanded so that the verse reads that although Jesus was supposed or assumed to be the descendant of Joseph, He was really the descendant of Heli. The absence of Mary’s name is quite in keeping with Jewish practices on genealogies, and it was not unusual for a son-in-law to be listed in his wife’s genealogy.

The third argument is the obvious viewpoint of the two genealogies. Matthew is clearly writing from the viewpoint of Joseph. Luke, however, is obviously writing from the viewpoint of Mary. So from the context alone, it would appear that Luke is giving Mary’s lineage, because his whole perspective is focused on Mary. - Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum

Deborah said...

Correction for an ommission in the 3rd paragraph:

As-is: The fact that Herod's Temple and the diaspora took place...

Should read: The fact that Herod's Temple was destroyed and the diaspora took place...

Nicholas Z. Cardot said...

I have posted several responses to these arguments over at my blog and I eagerly await your response. Thank you for everything that you have taught me so far.

The Baptist Muse: Jesus is the Messiah!

kahaneloyalist said...

Deborah, Yeshu was not a male line descendent of King David through his son Shlomo, you yourself admit this, so he could not be Mashiach, it doesnt matter if he was descended from David through his mother, those who are from David through the matrilinal line are not eligable to be Melech. There is no way to get around this, without the proper geneology, which is male-line descent from David through Shlomo Yeshu it is impossible for Yeshu to be Mashiach.

He was not a Navi, Matthew was written long after Yeshu was dead, and earlier prophecies had already foretold the destruction of the Temple, including Amos which you quoted.

Now in Yeshu's day there were exiles living outside Eretz Yisrael; Yeshu didnt bring them in. Nor did he cause the entire world to accept Hashem. Nor did he save Beit Shenei as Maschiach could have done, or save Israel from its enemies.

Deborah said...

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. (John 1:10-11)

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’” (Matthew 23:37-39)

1 Then Yeshua went out and departed from the temple, and His talmid came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Yeshua said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the talmid came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Yeshua answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The Great Tribulation

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:1-31)

1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Yeshua began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Ruach HaKodesh had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.
4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Ruach HaKodesh not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Ruach HaKodesh has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Yeshua, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:1-11)

----

Regarding the time in which the Gospels were written (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel),

Estimates for the dates when the canonical Gospel accounts were written vary significantly; and the evidence for any of the dates is scanty. Because the earliest surviving complete copies of the Gospels date to the 4th century and because only fragments and quotations exist before that, scholars use higher criticism to propose likely ranges of dates for the original gospel autographs. Scholars variously assess the consensus or majority view as follows:

Mark: c 68–73, c 65-70
Matthew: c 70–100. c 80-85. Some conservative scholars argue for a pre-70 date, particularly those that do not accept Mark as the first gospel written.
Luke: c 80–100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85,c 80-85
John: c 90-100,c 90–110, The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition.

----
Considering Yeshua's lifetime extended from 7-2 BC to 26-36 AD, the Gospels were written fairly quickly after his resurrection and ascension and written within a Jewish society that was notorious for its ability to maintain oral histories.

Given the short spanse of time between the actual events and the writing of the Gospels and letters, or B'rit Chadashah, the B'rit Chadashah has more validity than the Mishnah which was first written in 200 CE, the Babylonian Talmud which was written in 500 CE, and the Midrash which was written between 2nd and 9th Centuries CE - all hundreds and hundreds of years after the Oral Torah was supposedly given.

kahaneloyalist said...

Deborah, quoting the Gospels to prove Jesus, isnt going to work on Jews, your using circular logic of since the Gospels said Jesus was a Navi, and Mashiach he must be. That doesnt prove anything to a Jew.

Nicholas Z. Cardot said...

Kahaneloyalist and Bar and anyone who is interested,

I have posted several more refutations and responses in the thread at my site. I eagerly await your response to my questions and I appreciate all of the insight that you folks have been so kind to share with me.

The Baptist Muse: Jesus is the Messiah

Nicholas Z. Cardot said...

I apologize that I have been out of the game for about a day now. I have volleyed another round over at my end of the blogosphere.

Deborah said...

I'd like to retract a statement I made above, which was not a fully informed observation.

I said, "Perhaps rabbinical Judaism does not acknowledge the notion of 'hypocrisy,' but Yeshua, a Karaite Jew, did!"

Big Daddy Jew immediately refuted me, "Yeshua wasn't a Kairite Jew. He believed in and quoted the Oral Torah." This certainly caused me to pause and to consider other sources as to whether Yeshua was a Karaite or not.

A Karaite Jew is someone who adheres strictly to the written Torah and Tanakh, they do not abide by the Oral Torah.

Prior to really researching the issue and looking for dissenting commentators to the claim that Yeshua practiced an early form of Karaitism in the 1st century, the light bulb came on when I commented to BK the other day using John 6:44: “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." Ah, hah! I had my answer! Obviously, Yeshua believed in parts of Oral Torah and quoted it in a positive light.

You see, the Sadducees had a theology very similar to the Karaites. The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection of the dead since the Tanakh does not explicity deal with the resurrection of the dead ("For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all." (Acts 23:8)). The belief in the resurrection of the dead is given to us by the Oral Torah. The Pharisees found the concept implied. This issue divided the Pharisees, who are the ancestors of Rabbinical (Talmudic) Judaism, and the Sadducess.

Shalom, y'all!

Deborah said...

One more thing regarding my debate with BK as to whether Catholic Crusaders were real Christians. I forgot the Jewish perspective that one is always considered a Jew who is born to a Jewish mother - Judaism is an ethnicity, Christianity is not. Christianity is extended to all peoples of all races and tribes. Without understanding this, we cannot intelligently argue with each other's positions.

Within Catholicism, and some Protestant denominations, one only has to be baptised before being considered a Christian, which is usually performed while the child is an infant or toddler - giving that person (child) no choice in the matter.

This practice diverges greatly from evangelical Christianity, which baptizes only after a person understands that Yeshua is the Anointed One (Messiah) sent by God and acknowledges Him as L-RD (Psalm 2 and 110, Isaiah 7:14).

Within evangelical Christianity, one has to be old enough to understand who Yeshua is and the redemptive work His life, death, and resurrection accomplished, and then believe in his/her heart that Yeshua is who He says He is -- that He is L-RD -- in order to partake of the salvation/ redemption. It's only upon a cognitive understanding of Yeshua and His redemptive work that is one able to enter into the "Renewed Covenant" with G-d (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

For further understanding, Ephesians 2:11-13 :

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Messiah, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Yeshua HaMashiach you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Messiah* (*Isaiah 53:10-12).

Yeshua said we would "know them by their fruits." This allows us to question one who says he/she has accepted Yeshua and His redemptive work for their salvation, but who acts like satan, such as, Catholic Crusaders, Adolph Hitler etc. Apparently (in the strictest sense), there was no circumcision of these people's hearts by the power of the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit), thus a covenant was not made with G-d as spoken of in Jeremiah 31! They were/are not, then, a "true or real Christian." This is why evangelical Christians reject the doctrines of sects within Christianity who baptize their babies. A baby cannot possibly make the cognitive decision necessary to "believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Yeshua is L-RD." (However, a quick note of clarification regarding evangelical Christianity doctrine: G-d does not hold a child accountable for his/her indiscretions until he/she reaches the age of accountability, which is not defined in evangelical Christianity. The "age of accountability" is a moving target based on the maturity of the child and judgment is truly left to G-d as to when the child is accountable as He knows their hearts. It is generally believed, however, that 13 years of age is right around the threshold of when one enters into accountability before G-d.)

In summary, going back to my previous analogy, as a man who dresses like a woman walks around in "drag," so too the Catholic Crusader who purported to be a "Christian" walked around in "drag." Those who murdered Jews in the name of G-d had not "cut covenant" with G-d, were not circumcised in their hearts, and did not know G-d!