Tuesday, December 25, 2007

What's in a name? - Parshat Shemot

What's in a name? A name is a paradox. On one hand, it represents something's essence. A person who is unconscious can be woken up by simply hearing their name. The name has a certain influence on how a person acts, how he will be perceived... On the other hand, a name is nothing but a label and has no effect on a person's being. If my name were John, Jacob or David, I would still have the same personality. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

This week's parsha begins with the words "These are the names of the Children of Israel who are going down to Egypt". The verse can be interpreted as that it is the names of the Children of Israel who are going down to Egypt, not the Children of Israel themselves. This is because the Israelites were only superficially slaves to Pharaoh, in exile, while their souls belonged to G-d and to G-d alone. No Jew can ever truly be enslaved or ruled by a tyrant since our allegiance is to no man. Only our names can be oppressed, conquered, but never our being.

During the long two-thousand year exile, when hordes of anti-semites or pogroms were on raging outside the gates, the Jews retreated into their Talmuds. As they saw their subjugated status, instead on being ashamed, the Jews remembered their glorious pasts, the kingdoms of David and Solomon, the splendor of the Temples. During the Holocaust, rabbis in ghettos and concentration camps continued to produce scholarly works, oblivious to the death and despair around them. Through the Torah, they were free from any oppression or danger. Even though we were exiled far away from our home, whenever ten Jews gathered to pray in a synagogue, they were in Israel. They prayed towards Zion, spoke the language of Israel, Hebrew, and learned of their majestic passed while dreaming of their glorious future. Even though anti-semites were determined to crush their spirit, the Jews escaped their terrible conditions and lived in peace in the world of Torah.

The Sages tells us that the Jews were redeemed from Egypt through virtue of the fact that they kept their Jewish language, Jewish names and Jewish clothing. In Egypt, they continued to speak Hebrew and regarded Egyptian as a foreign tongue, only speaking it under duress. They kept their Hebrew names and dressed modestly, even as the Egyptians walked around half-exposed in the hot climate. Through all of these, the Israelites were able to keep their indentity and gave their soul's allegiance to the G-d of Israel, even as their bodies were held captive in the Auschwitz of Egypt.

Jews, know that we are an eternal people and can never be broken. Today, we are free physically but spiritually we often gives ourselves over to false gods, to assimilation, to foreign influences. Only by submitting ourselves completely to G-d can we escape any physical tribulations. HaShem, the G-d of Israel is King, and His kingdom is over all governance!"

77 comments:

Yehudi01 said...

Well said, BK! It must be the warm tropical air of Florida that has inspired you!
'Ata tamid tsodek, khaver yakar!

WomanHonorThyself said...

that they kept their Jewish language, Jewish names and Jewish clothing.... very true Bar..and your name. even on here is a tribute to u!..Bar !

young_activist said...

You guys still here?
https://www.blogger.com/
comment.g?blogID=7092397679011227919&
postID=8292312546222985792

Jungle Mom said...

This is one of the many things I admire about the tewish people. They are capable of being actively involved in a culture and yet mainyain their own identity.

young_activist said...

The who?

The Frank Family said...

Hey, young activist, The WHO is a rock group but that's way before your time. If you want to take on people for typos I'll be more than happy to cut and paste some of your own mistakes from Brooke's blog. I guarantee that you are WAY out of your league here with BK. Your hatred of Israel will only show you to be a fool around these parts.

young_activist said...

Me and BK have been going at it a long time before you even knew who I was, but unlike you BK is capable of having an open debate.

young_activist said...

and by the way, I don't hate Israel, I just disagree with the policies of its government.

The Frank Family said...

Just don't say I didn't warn you. Incidentally I saw when you first invaded BK's blog. Look at his post history and you'll see how long I've been around. Once again, you don't know what you're talking about. Remember I warned you what will happen with your Israel hate speech here.

young_activist said...

Calling for peace and condemning apartheid is not hate speech. Advocating it is. That is the diffrence between liberals and conservatives.

The Frank Family said...

Supporting those who reign down rockets on innocent families in Israel or condemning those who do this -- that is the difference betwwen liberals and conservatives.

The Frank Family said...

"Palestine is under Israeli occupation, Palestinian militants retaliate by firing rockets at Israel, Israel responds with indiscriminate bombing and home demolitions against Palestinian civilians."

Here's your foolish accusation from Brooke's blog. Do you care to try defending it here? Is this your call for peace?

Yehudi01 said...

I doubt very much BK is going to take time away from the sun and sand to entertain this mamzer. I wouldn't.

Yehudi01 said...

Lech hapess me yenanea otcha, Young Activist.

The Frank Family said...

Very funny, yehudi! I would offer him a quarter but pay phones are more than that now.

young_activist said...

That's not a call for peace, its a statement of facts. Why don't you look it up?

The Frank Family said...

Palestine is under Israeli occupation??? A fact??? HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

By the way here's some other myths you may not know:

* Santa Claus -- not real
* Easter Bunny -- fake
*Tooth Fairy -- really your mom or dad

Brooke said...

I agree with Jungle Mom!

Funny how Dora vanishes and suddenly a 'young activist' shows up. LOL!

Bar Kochba said...

Well, I got a little burn so I could use a little time in the shade. And from the sun, my hair became uber-blonde (just a sidenoted. I think I look great).

YA: We've already been over the fact that "Palestine" does not exist so your statement makes no sense. I guess that Atlantis and Valhalla are under Israeli occupation also! But, how did Israel's "occupation" of Judea and Samaria start? Arab terror did not start in '67. Since the beginning of the settlement of the Land there has been terror. During the pogroms of '21 or '29 when the Jews of Hebron, Safed, Jerusalem etc. where killed, where the Arab upset about the "occupation"?

young_activist said...

As I have said there were, and are extremists on both sides of this issue (look up the King David Hotel Bombing), I do not condone these acts of violence. I'm not sure were you got the idea that Palestine does not exist, perhaps a bit of revisionist history needed to justify Israel, in the historical sense Palestine is the area from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, but in the modern sense it is used as a political term to describe the West Bank and Gaza. You need to separate the opposition of conservative Muslims to the Jews presence in the Holy Land from the opposition of moderates to the oppression of the Palestinian people. After the occupation of Palestine began opposition to Israel became much more mainstream.

There is no conceivable way in which you can justify the genocide that has been carried out by Israel. Conservatives, by their nature, value the blood of their people above everyone else, so perhaps you do not care about the suffering caused by Israel, but liberals value every person equally. We are just as distressed by the murder and kidnapping of Palestinians as we are Israelis. You seem to only care about Jews who are kidnapped and murdered.

That is the error of conservative thought. If you are born a Jewish conservative you will be advocating the repression of Arabs and if you are born an Arab conservative you’ll be calling for the killing of Jews. That is why the secret to world peace is the eradication of conservatism. If everyone was a liberal there would be no war or terrorism or strife. Palestinians and Israelis, Persians and Arabs, they could all live in peace side by side.

Yehudi01 said...

Idealogically, it's a great argument. But what you're missing, YA, is that if the western world all became liberals, Muslims would rule the world. That's EXACTLY what they want...impressionable young monds like yours to fight their PR war for them. Are you arab? Are you a Jew? If you answer 'no' to both of those questions, you're probably unqualified to speak intelligently about the dynamics involved. I don't say that to be rude, but the world is full of anti_Israel rhetoric...we don't need one more set of gums flapping in the wind.

Bar Kochba said...

I know about the King David Hotel Bombing. (Incidentally, I have a great-uncle who was a member of Etzel with Menachem Begin.) There, the British were warned in advance of a bomb, which the British dismissed by saying 'we don't take warnings from Jews'. The point was to minimize the loss of life. While nothing can be achieved without violence and I do not apologize for the Arabs who have been killed by Israel tyring to defend itself, Israel has never intentionally attacked civilans while Pseudostinians constantly try to murder innocent Jews. You claim to be 'even-handed' but you can excuse every Pseudostinian excess, every Jewish infant shot in the head by a snipper (like Shalevet Pas h"yd. Google her), every bus blown up with tens of Jews in it, as 'resistance'. YA, take your euphemisms and shove them. Jewish blood comes cheap to you. You 'cycle of violence' myth is bullshit. Imagine for a sceond that every Arab army decided to take a break for a month, or even a year. Israel's soldiers would surely go home. Imagine on the other hand if the IDF took a month break, or even a day's. Arab hordes would surely come pouring into Israel, thirsty for Jewish blood. This is not farfetched as the Arab newspapers proclaim it every day. You also mentionned Israel's genocide of the Arabs. My quesiton is: Since Israel has one of the most advanced and developped economy and industry in the world, why has it taken them over 60 years to finishe the Arabs? Surely we Jews aren't that lazy.

As for Pseudostine, I have already told you of its origins. "Palestine" refered to a geographic area, yes, but never to a sovereign country. Can you name the first king of "Palestine"? When it was founded? Its contributions to the world? There never was a political entity known as Palestine! It is a fraud and a euphemism for the slaughter of the Jewish people. I couldn't care less what you think about Israel and the "occupation". Did you take a look at the site I gave you? Of course you didn't. You are hopelessly ignorant. Come back once you've educated yourself.

heidianne jackson said...

brooke, you're sooo right - is ya just aDORAble?

bar, you are one of my favorite visits as i learn so much each and every time i stop by. and i agree that israel is not to blame.

the arabs target the jews and israel reacts and it's all the fault of the jews? how does that make any logical sense whatsoever?

The Frank Family said...

"That is the error of conservative thought. If you are born a Jewish conservative you will be advocating the repression of Arabs and if you are born an Arab conservative you’ll be calling for the killing of Jews. That is why the secret to world peace is the eradication of conservatism. If everyone was a liberal there would be no war or terrorism or strife."

You must wear slip-on shoes because thinking this poorly would not even allow you the thought capacity to be able to tie shoe laces!!! If everyone was a liberal our country would deteriorate until there was nothing left of it. Free loafing, free money, oral sex for all politicians, free love to everyone lucky enough to have escaped from the womb without being killed in cold blood!!! No work, no law, no rules, no respect, no loyalty, and no honor!!! Boy, what a wonderful world that would be. Dumb ass!!!

Yehudi01 said...

Ma nisrat lech bamoch? Ata chay be'sratim, ya smark shel ez!

Bar Kochba said...

Frank Family: All moral considerations aside, liberal aversion to fighting could only work if everyone was liberal. In the same way that pacifism only hurts free countries since pacifists have a lot more freedom in democracies that in tyrannies, liberal kumbaya nonsense doesn't work in the real world. Whether we like it or not, there are people out there who hate us and want to kill us. The US, Israel, the West, have to fight Islamofascism and the liberal unholy alliance with them hardly helps. Until the moshiach comes, we will have to fight and we will have to be tough.

Bar Kochba said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Frank Family said...

So, yehudi, how many times in the past have you cursed me out in hebrew? HAHAHAHAHA

The Frank Family said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Frank Family said...

I believe Young A may be coming from the OTHER end of the goat. Poor goat!!

Yehudi01 said...

It's alot more fun than english...and I don't feel quite so bad. :)

The Frank Family said...

So how many times was that, yehudi?

Jungle Mom said...

Yep! My typing stinks!!!

young_activist said...

What are you talking about? Of course I visited your sites. I always try to understand were the other side is coming from (something you don't seem capable of)in fact right now I am reading a book called The Case for Israel heard of it? Read it? In it the author accuses the Pope of supporting terrorism; you lose credibility when you say things like that.

And yes there have been many Palestinian civilians deliberately targeted by Jews.

I value Jewish blood and Arab blood the same, a concept that my conservative friends still living in the stone ages haven't managed to wrap their minds around. I have many Jewish friends and some Arab friends as well. Unlike you I don't hate anyone.

The fact that you cannot come up with one Israeli atrocity you are critical of only demonstrates the point that you are an apologist and will defend Israel irrespective of the facts. You’ve even bragged about being related to a terrorist. If you defend Jewish terrorism then you have no right to condemn Arab terrorism. You are bad as Hamas.

Why can't you address the massacres led by Israel in the south of Lebanon? Why don't you address the home demolitions? Why don't you take a look at the millions of cluster bombs Israel dropped into downtown Beirut? Why don't you look at the response to the tax revolts? Why don't you take a look at Rachel Corrie? There are some examples of civilians being deliberately targeted. No one here is defending the Arab terrorists, but there are a thousand apologists for the Israeli terrorists.

I don't want everyone in the west to be a liberal. I want everyone in the world to be a liberal.

The fight is not against Islam. The fight is one against conservatism. Those who attack the west do so not because they are Muslims, but rather because they are conservatives. Conservatism is the root of all ideological evil.

Yehudi01 said...

None, my friend. I would never do that. Not to mention you seem to know what it means, (how do you know what it means? Do you have a Hebrew/English dictionary?)

At any rate, I have no patience for people like him. I've always told my salesmen that there's 2 things I can't overcome, (with regard to a customer): Ignorance and poverty. I can overcome any objection, but I can't overcome those two things. He is definately ignorant, so it's best to send him on his way.

The Frank Family said...

I'm just giving you crap, yehudi. No dictionary I just became fluent in hebrew over the past week. That's what I'm doing with my jail time from work. HAHAHA Actually, the internet is a vast wealth of knowledge.
Our young activist friend here is completely idiotic but maybe he'll grow out of it. He's barely old enough to deliver your newspaper at this point. It reminds me of the old quote: "If you're not liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not conservative when you're older, you have no brain."

Bar Kochba said...

How many times have I heard that bull, 'you are as bad as Hamas.' Yes, because I blow myself up in buses full of women and children or because I lynch soldiers and proudly display my bloodied hands to the world. Don't forget how I shot toddle Shalhevet Pas in the head. Or when I killed over 20 in a Passover Seder hotel bombing. If the Arabs restricted themselves to attacking only military targets, they would be considered legitimate fighters. While obviously they would still be my enemies, it would be an honourable fight. But they don't. They purposely kill innocent Jews. My great-uncle fough the British, never ever deliberately attacking citizens. I don't care what you say because he was a freedom fighter, not a terrorist murderer like Hamas.

When Israel practiced selective killings, assassinations, it was criticized. When it practiced the opposite, collective punishment, it was criticized. Why? Because its not the manner but the fact that Jews defend themselves that the world hates. For example, in the so-called Qana "massacre", terrorist hid among civilians, among children. It should be terrorists who receive the most severe condemnations, not the state that was trying to protect itself while a million of its citizens lived in shelters. Home demolitions are perfectly justified as one rarely becomes a suicide murderer on your own; the family encourages it. There are videos of Arab mothers dancing in the strets upon hearing of their son's 'martyrdom'. In fact, Israel's response is far too mild for the sort of attacks that it suffers. Take a look at Russia's reponse to Chechnyan bombings- it leveled Grozny! Has Israel ever done a similar thing? (If only...)

I don't hate Arabs, neither do I want them to die, G-d forbid. Every life is precious. Nonetheless, Israel has a right and a moral duty to defend itself. Until you know what its like to have bombs go off on buses and live in a shelter while kassams fall on your house or school, have a nice cup of shut the f*** up.

Yehudi01 said...

You can't get more blunt than that! Nicely said, my friend. Now, please visit www.alleywaystotorah.blogspot.com
and encourage a Yeshiva rabbi that was slandered. It's a great blog that I enjoy reading. Read the next-to most recent post on his blog...it explains everything.

young_activist said...

Irgun did in fact attack and kill Arab civilians and also attacked targets outside of Palestine (such as the British embassy is Rome). So you have just lied. Irgun is a terrorist group in the same sense that Hamas is a terrorist group.

So, if the Palestinians would confine their attacks to military targets you would say their struggle to be honorable, legitimate, etc. There are many in the Palestinian resistance (such as Barghuti) who want to confine attacks to military targets, there are many others who won't support any violent attacks, but I have to say, Israel's brutal repression of the Palestinian people has only worsened Israel's security situation. You say that Israel has to be heavy handed because the Arabs want to destroy Israel, but the Arab states have offered to recognize Israel. Israel refused. Hamas offered a cease-fire with Israel. Israel refused. Hamas offered to exchange prisoners with Israel. Israel refused. It’s as if the Israelis enjoy the violence.

If the IDF and the state of Israel would halt their illegal operations (including the theft of Arab land) I can assure you that it would greatly undermine Hamas and would likely make Israel safer.

The Frank Family said...

"You say that Israel has to be heavy handed because the Arabs want to destroy Israel, but the Arab states have offered to recognize Israel. Israel refused. Hamas offered a cease-fire with Israel. Israel refused. Hamas offered to exchange prisoners with Israel. Israel refused. It’s as if the Israelis enjoy the violence."

All of what you say here is in error. If I say I mean you no harm but then shoot you in the back when you turn around what is worth more my words or my actions? Hamas' actions are what is heard and not their lies of peace.

Yehudi01 said...

YA, you said, "but the Arab states have offered to recognize Israel. Israel refused."

Only two arab states have recognized Israel-Jordan and Egypt, and that was after they both invaded Israel...twice! After devastating losses, they decided that peace may work better than war and terror, so they legitamized relations. How many news articles do you see where there is violence between Israel and these two countries? None! Why? Because Israel wants to live in peace. I promise you that if Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or any other abar country that is currently threatening Israel would seek to normalize relations and acknowledge Israel's right to exist...the fighting would stop. Immediately. You know that, but you're too ignorant to admit it. As for Hamas? They only want a peace treaty so they can regroup and rearm. They as for peace while they continue to fire rockets at our civilian centers. How does that make any sense? I can't say this strongly enough: You're ignorance of the reality on the ground in Israel is appalling and offensive. Again I ask...Ma nisrat lech bamoch?

young_activist said...

It’s official, there can no longer be any doubt. Yehudi01 is an ignorant moron and an Israeli apologist whose opinions are formed irrespective of the facts. Especially for someone living in Israel you have no idea what you are talking about.

First of all Iran is not an Arab, or an abar, country as you call it and if you had any understanding of the region you would know that.

“Israel wants to live in peace. I promise you that if Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or any other abar country that is currently threatening Israel would seek to normalize relations and acknowledge Israel's right to exist...the fighting would stop. Immediately. You know that, but you're too ignorant to admit it.”
That is not true and you are to ignorant to admit it

But more importantly,
Official translation of the full text of a Saudi-inspired peace plan adopted by the Arab summit in Beirut, 2002.
The Council of Arab States at the Summit Level at its 14th Ordinary Session,
Reaffirming the resolution taken in June 1996 at the Cairo Extra-Ordinary Arab Summit that a just and comprehensive peace in the Middle East is the strategic option of the Arab countries, to be achieved in accordance with international legality, and which would require a comparable commitment on the part of the Israeli government,
Having listened to the statement made by his royal highness Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, crown prince of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, in which his highness presented his initiative calling for full Israeli withdrawal from all the Arab territories occupied since June 1967, in implementation of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, reaffirmed by the Madrid Conference of 1991 and the land-for-peace principle, and Israel's acceptance of an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital, in return for the establishment of normal relations in the context of a comprehensive peace with Israel,
Emanating from the conviction of the Arab countries that a military solution to the conflict will not achieve peace or provide security for the parties, the council:
1. Requests Israel to reconsider its policies and declare that a just peace is its strategic option as well.
2. Further calls upon Israel to affirm:
I- Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the June 4, 1967 lines as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon.
II- Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.
III- The acceptance of the establishment of a sovereign independent Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since June 4, 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital.
3. Consequently, the Arab countries affirm the following:
I- Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region.
II- Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.
4. Assures the rejection of all forms of Palestinian patriation which conflict with the special circumstances of the Arab host countries.
5. Calls upon the government of Israel and all Israelis to accept this initiative in order to safeguard the prospects for peace and stop the further shedding of blood, enabling the Arab countries and Israel to live in peace and good neighbourliness and provide future generations with security, stability and prosperity.
6. Invites the international community and all countries and organisations to support this initiative.
7. Requests the chairman of the summit to form a special committee composed of some of its concerned member states and the secretary general of the League of Arab States to pursue the necessary contacts to gain support for this initiative at all levels, particularly from the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States of America, the Russian Federation, the Muslim states and the European Union.
.
Needless to say Israel rejected this offer.

young_activist said...

FF,
Hamas cannot be defeated militarily. It's like the Hydra. Every time you cut off a head two more grow back. It has to be defeated politically. A cease-fire would solve the problem completely if honored and if it was broken by Hamas it would do more to hurt Hamas then Israel could ever do. There really wasn't much reason to reject that offer no matter Hamas's intentions.

The Frank Family said...

I'm glad that you brought up the hydra. If you remember, Hercules did not solve that problem politically. What was needed was more serious force. The heads needed to not only be cut off but then their stump burned and branded. This is how Israel should deal with Hamas in order to teach the surrounding area what will happen if they kill Jewish families through cowardly acts of random violence. Hamas will then learn that they need to put a leash on their radical element or face dire consequences. Only then will there be peace. Peace will not come through political means because those who are the real problem are disconnected from politics altogether. They only know hate and do not care what is in the best interest for their fellow countrymen. They can only truly be dealt with by their neighbors expeling them and eradicating them. Israel's only option to force this to happen is to put pressure on Hamas who has influence with the area.

Yehudi01 said...

YA, does that peace plan sound good to you? Of course it does, because it seems to me you would shout for joy at the destruction of the nation of Israel..you would pass out party hats at the onset of a second holacaust...because that is exactly what would happen if Israel accepted those terms. As much as Israel wants peace, we don't want it at the expense of our very existance. Accepting those terms means withdrawing to pre-1967 borders and then accepting over 1 million pseudo-stinian "refugees" into Israel, which would be a major demographic swing in favor of the arabs.

If the arabs really wanted peace, why didn't they accept the Wye Agreements when Rabin offered everything they were asking for? Arafat didn't want peace, but he couldn't appear to be the terrorist that he really was, (after all, he won the nobel peace prize!)...so it stalled over the development of Har Homa in Jerusalem! That is and was under Israeli control anyway, so why wouldn't we build there??!!

You are nothing more than a pre-pubic little bookworm who thinks he's a big boy now that he can talk to grown-ups. Did you get stuffed in a locker today at school? Pull yourself off your mommy's boob you little mamzer and try debating intelligently.

Yehudi01 said...

There was also the little matter of Arafat collecting illegal weapons from the terror groups that were operating with impunity from the territories and stopping terror attacks. All of which he failed to do. He also failed to stop the flow of weapons into the terror groups that he was commanding. Why wouldn't he win the Nobel Peace Prize?

young_activist said...

An intelligent discussion would be one based on facts and not your silly little fantasies. You just went back on what you said in order to fit your distorted view of reality. Here's a riddle: what's half your age and twice your intelligence. You have proved you have no clue what you are talking about. Why can’t you just be honest about it? You want to have an intelligent discussion? Go read a book and then we’ll talk.

The Frank Family said...

The only fairy tale here is your insistance that the pseudostineans offer peace to Israel. If this is the wish of the Hamas dogs then why do they continually send rockets into Israel? There is no logical answer because these dogs are not logical they are ideological and will stop at nothing to see Israel eradicated from the map. Israel shows an amazing amount of restraint by not letting their planes and fighters do what they are capable of doing with precision and skill. BK has a link on the side to the Religion of Peace website. Go and see the kind of peace that pseudostineans have to offer. Where do Jews display a life of violence? Where do Jews behead prisoners who are kidnapped because of their color or religion? Where do Jews kill their own children for not dressing appropriately? Where do Jews try the victim of rape and not the violent rapists? Where do Jews keep their women on leashes? Where do Jews strap explosives to themselves and run into crowded streets or markets or restaurants and take the lives of people whose only crime was shopping for food or eating with their family?

young_activist said...

That arguement works two ways. If Israel wants peace why do they send tanks into Gaza and colonizers into the West BanK?

young_activist said...

The only difference between sending suicide bombers into residential areas and dropping cluster bombs into residential areas is the method of delivery. As a matter of principle those tactics are equally abhorable.

Likewise there is no principled difference between beheadings and missile attacks.

With regards to the others you are using straw man tactics to try to divert attention from the real issue. I could do the same toward Jews just to make that point, but unlike you I am not a racist.

The Frank Family said...

Straw man tactics? Try ugly reality. This is not racism these are factual occurences. Your argument has no merit at all. How can you compare tanks going into Gaza with suicide bombers and rockets falling from the sky? Let me ask you this, if you are at a park having a family get together and someone goes jogging by listening to their headphones is it reasonable to assume they are a threat to you and your family? If you are at the same park with your family and a military tank rolls in and heads towards you what is it reasonable to assume? Tanks have a military purpose and offer a military presence. If you are around a tank there is no mistake that you are in danger and should leave the area if you are not inclined to fight said tank. If you are in a market or a resaurant and someone walks in with an appearance of nothing different to his person and then suddenly detonates himself among women and children and families are you saying that's a level playing field? Where is the honor in that person's actions? Whom are they protecting? They don't serve to protect any country from anyone but only to kill and maim and destroy for their own personal ideology or sick dream of 72 virgins. The two actions are not comparing apples with apples. How often do Israeli tanks roll into Gaza? How often does Israel drop cluster bombs? What warning does Israel give when they do these actions and what warning does a suicide bomber give? Don't be so naive! Israel fights with integrity and honor and only does what makes her people safe from outside harm. Can you say the same of Hamas?

young_activist said...

So if suicide bombers wear their green headbands to the scene of the crime it is okay becuase they have identified themselves? That would be the conclusion if your flawed logic were universally applied.

Yehudi01 said...

YA, you avoid the questions that Jason is asking because you know that you can't possibly defend the muslim position...and why would you? I'm not being sarcastic now, I'm being serious. Why wouldn't you take the moral high ground and condemn the actions of terrorists? The UN, (which I loathe), has listed Hamas as a terrorist organization, so why would you defend them?

young_activist said...

I've always condemned Hamas. If you'ld paid attention to my posts that would be blatantly clear.

young_activist said...

Hamas is not the Muslim position, but that is beside the point. I am critical of violence, extremism, and terrorism on BOTH sides of the fence. Something you have not yet managed to do. My condemnation of Israel cannot be equated with praise for all who fight Israel. Any intelligent person would know that.

Yehudi01 said...

I refuse to continue this conversation because he makes me want to use language that's forbidden during Shabbat.

The Frank Family said...

"Hamas is not the Muslim position, but that is beside the point."

If hamas is not the Muslim position then why were they the elected ruling party of pseudostine? You must be saying that they are illegitimate or that pseudostine is illegitimate. Hamas is the majority ideology of the pseudostineans. Or did they get the whole election thing messed up? Open your eyes and see the truth because it is right in front of your face. How would you suggest Israel deal with the rockets falling and the suicide bombers exploding in their streets? What "political" solution would you endorse for these kind of actions? Remember you've already condemned Israel for cutting off power or water. What do you suggest they do?

young_activist said...

Negotiate

young_activist said...

Hamas's election is only a backlash to Israeli repression in much the same way that the Islamic Revolution in Iran was backlash to the Shah's repression. As the elected representatives of the Palestinian people they do enjoy some legitimacy even though we gravely disagree with their policies. However, we must also understand the reason they were elected. That reason is Israel. If Israel were less hawkish more moderate forces would have an easier time gaining tractions.

To stop the rockets?

As I have said, Israel has two options that will provide long term solutions and not just quick fixes that further inflame the situation and ultimately make the problem worse. They can accept Hamas's offer of a cease-fire, which as I have already explained would be in Israel's advantage to do regardless of Hamas's sincerity and /or Israel can work to undermine Hamas politically. They have already made a half-hearted attempt at this, but only a full scale effort will offer worth while results. Releasing Barghuti would be the ultimate weapon against Hamas and, they could perhaps gain concessions such as the release of Shalit in the process.

The Frank Family said...

So Hamas was in no way elected because they hold the ideology of the pseudostineans? Israel should just negotiate? The word negotiate may seem like a magic word to your mind but it is not. Everyone wants countries to just negotiate but that is not the end all solution in most cases. Pseudostine offers nothing to their people even though they have been given one billion dollars this year to improve the infrastructure and feed their people. Did they make their own power plants? Did they provide clean water for their people? Did they build hospitals to help the sick? They use Israel's power, Israel's water, and Israel's hospitals. In return for these services provided by Israel they launch rockets and send suicide bombers. What is there to negotiate? Quick question here: how many rockets have been sent into Israel in the past 6 months? How many tanks or cluster bombs have Israel sent in the past six months? Try answering the questions given you this time. You've ignored most of the other ones because the answers don't serve your purpose.

young_activist said...

In terms of damage done in the last six months the Palestinians have suffered more, but that is beside the point. Who is right and who is wrong is not determined by counts of casulties and rockets.

I don't understand your aversion to negotiation. If it fails it does no damage, but if it is succesfull then it offers a preferable alternative to more carnage.

young_activist said...

Perhaps if you talked to an everyday Palestinian you would realize you have more in common then you think.

http://orangesandolives.blogspot.com/

young_activist said...

What have I not answered?

Yehudi01 said...

YA, when was the last time you talked to an everyday pseudostinian? Face to face...in Israel? You are an armchair quarterback at best, who's never played a game of football. Stop trying to solve the world's problems from your mommy's mac.

Yehudi01 said...

YA, watch this video. This is who you want to negotiate with? These people aren't even in Israel, so you can't blame Israeli policy for this. Jason, don't watch this, and if you do, make sure the girls aren't around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuXviW7nFk8

The Frank Family said...

What have I not answered?

-- Did they make their own power plants? Did they provide clean water for their people? Did they build hospitals to help the sick? They use Israel's power, Israel's water, and Israel's hospitals. In return for these services provided by Israel they launch rockets and send suicide bombers. What is there to negotiate?

-- So Hamas was in no way elected because they hold the ideology of the pseudostineans?

-- How often do Israeli tanks roll into Gaza? How often does Israel drop cluster bombs? What warning does Israel give when they do these actions and what warning does a suicide bomber give? Don't be so naive! Israel fights with integrity and honor and only does what makes her people safe from outside harm. Can you say the same of Hamas?

-- Where do Jews display a life of violence? Where do Jews behead prisoners who are kidnapped because of their color or religion? Where do Jews kill their own children for not dressing appropriately? Where do Jews try the victim of rape and not the violent rapists? Where do Jews keep their women on leashes? Where do Jews strap explosives to themselves and run into crowded streets or markets or restaurants and take the lives of people whose only crime was shopping for food or eating with their family?

Yehudi01 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Yehudi01 said...

Here's one for you, Young Activist...how terrible can she be to receive this? This is somebody's daughter, someone's sister..I've seen this up close and personal...you've only heard about things like this. Treasure your innocence and learn about those whom you choose to defend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=F4g8aUVu_9o

young_activist said...

I am not now nor have I ever defended a terrorist. Get it through your head.

The Frank Family said...

Hamas is a terrorist organization even by the United Nations standards and yet they were the chosen government and elected by a majority of your everyday joe pseudostinean. How can you not see this?

Yehudi01 said...

Watch the video, YA.

Yehudi01 said...

Hey youngster, I saw on your blog that you advocate the boycott of Israeli products...watch this video to see the folly of that strategy. Don't worry, this one won't give you nightmares.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLZKqxacr68&feature=related

Yehudi01 said...

Hey Jason, I'm shutting down for the game...I'll email ya or call ya at halftime. I'll call if things go the way I think they should, and email if they're not. :)

kahaneloyalist said...

BK, after the end of that particular argument I think it is very important that I clear a common misconception. What Menachem Begin did by showing mercy to our enemies was not righteous, it was the poison of the exil twisting his heart. It is a Christian, and Western Liberal concept to fight wars the way Israel and the Etzel chose to fight. Only the Lechi, led by a observant Jew, Yair Stern, fought according to Jewish law, and Jewish values. Remember the words of the Tanchuma, when you go out to war, have no mercy upon them, as they will have none upon you. And the Rambam, he saidthose who show mercy to our enemies, their hands have Jewish blood on them.

Remember what Yehuda HaMaccabee did, wiping out entire cities, recall why Shaul lost his throne, and never forget the words of Gemara Sanhedrin, every member of the enemy nation we kill is as if we brought a Korbon to Hashem.

Please learn the Jewish laws of war Check out Rambam Hilchot Melachim, to learn how a Jewish army should behave.

young_activist said...

I support the boycott of Israel on the grounds that Israel should be treated in the same manner as South Africa during that nation’s Apartheid.

young_activist said...

Being heavy handed as kahaneloyalist has suggested is not only morally abhorable it is also an ineffective policy from the realpolitik perspective as well. Just look at what happend to Gyanendra.

young_activist said...

If you want to discuss the governments of Arabia then go right ahead. You think I'm critical of Israel? You obvioulsy haven't heard my thoughts on the other governments of the region.