Thursday, August 30, 2007

And then what?


All discussion of politics in Israel centers around the Arab problem and one can never seem to get beyond that. Even here, most posts are about the Israel-Arab conflict or reports on the latest Arab attack. However, when we, the Jewish People, will apply the Jewish solution to this problem (expulsion and no concessions), Israel will still be around and will still have a destiny to meet. The Arab crisis will disappear when true Torah leaders appear. The Jewish Israel will still have to decide how it will interact with the rest of the world.
A Jewish Israel, free from its own constraints imposed on it by being surrounded by a sea of hostile Arabs and 20% of its populations being traitors, will be a force of good in this world. The Rav Kook, the first Chief Rabbi of Mandatory Palestine, wrote: "A normal country is like a large insurance company. It is not the source of its citizen’s supreme joy. Ideals, which are the crowning glory of mankind, hover above a country and do not touch it.
“Not so a country founded on ideals and inherently based on the most lofty message. Such countries truly constitute their citizen’s greatest joy. Therefore, the State of Israel is truly the most supreme on the scale of joy, and it constitutes the foundation of G-d’s throne on earth. Its entire purpose is that G-d should be one and His name one, truly the greatest source of joy.” (see Orot 160).
This will be the sort of state that will not participate in the upsming Olympics in Beijing as long as China continues to repress its people or while it tramples on human rights. Once Israel no longer has to use its army to keep Judea and Samaria peaceful and safe, it could rain rockets down on a terrorist enclave in Sudan that is used for a base for genocide of Darfuris. This will be a state that does not tolerate evil, cruelty, tyranny or oppression.
The Jewish Israel will fulfill the verse 'For out of Zion will go forth Torah and the word of G-d form Jerusalem'. The Temple Mount will have a synagogue and a beit midrash at the top where Jews and non-Jews alike can come and learn the word of Hashem. The Prophet Isaiah said that the Holy Temple should be a 'house of prayer for all nations'- that means that all peoples have a share in G-d's Torah. From its spiritual center of Jerusalem, the 7 Noahide laws that the Torah mandates for non-Jews will radiate around the globe. Jewish values of kindness, mercy, godliness and holiness will be promoted vigorously by this state that was meant to be 'the resting place of G-d's throne on Earth'.
Hopefully, the Moshiach will come tomorrow (or even today!) and we will merit the world that the Rambam (Mainmonides) describes in his Mishne Torah:
In that Era there will be neither famine nor war, neither envy nor competition, for good things will flow in abundance and all the delicacies will be as freely available as dust. The occupation of the entire world will be solely to know G‑d. The Jews will therefore be great sages and know the hidden mat­ters, and will attain an understanding of their Creator to the [full] extent of mortal potential; as it is written (Isaiah 11:9), "For the world will be filled with the knowledge of G‑d as the waters cover the ocean bed."
Amen, Selah!

20 comments:

WomanHonorThyself said...

From your pen to God's ears my sweet friend!..Shabbat Shalom!

Goat said...

We live in some strange times my Jewish friends and as a Christian we will face the Lord together and face our enemies as allies. as Angel said, Shabbat Shalom! Then we ascend to be with the Lord!

ZionistYoungster said...

"This will be the sort of state that will not participate in the upsming Olympics in Beijing as long as China continues to repress its people or while it tramples on human rights. Once Israel no longer has to use its army to keep Judea and Samaria peaceful and safe, it could rain rockets down on a terrorist enclave in Sudan that is used for a base for genocide of Darfuris. This will be a state that does not tolerate evil, cruelty, tyranny or oppression."

How true! Good requires power in order to maintain and expand good; good without power is an empty ideal with no influence in the world. Amazing how this is lost on the pacifists of the world.

Shabbat Shalom to you and yours!

Brooke said...

Happy Shabbat today, BK!

Yankee Doodle said...

I like you, and I'm happy to link to you, but I gotta raise the BS flag, and fly it high here.

You talk about expulsion and a Jewish Israel -- will there be room for Christians in Jewish Israel?

"From its spiritual center of Jerusalem, the 7 Noahide laws that the Torah mandates for non-Jews will radiate around the globe. Jewish values of kindness, mercy, godliness and holiness will be promoted vigorously by this state that was meant to be 'the resting place of G-d's throne on Earth'."

How's about this:

"From its spiritual center of Mecca, the Sharia that the Koran mandates for non-Muslims will radiate around the globe. Muslim values of kindness, mercy, godliness and holiness will be promoted vigorously by this state that was meant to be 'the resting place of Allah's throne on Earth'."

A few changes here and there, and your speech could have been made by bin Laden.

I don't doubt your sincere desire to do good.

But we must all recognize how the meanings of words can be twisted, and how desires can become lost in the wilderness of expediency -- and how such words could be the ominous harbinger of a pogrom against the gentiles.

The road to Hell is paved with righteous desires for the common good.

Bar Kochba said...

I'm going to be politically incorrect here and should you object, that really sucks.
I don't distinguish between Arabs and non-Arabs in terms of Israeli citizenship. Israel was founded to be a Jewish state but that term becomes meaningless when non-Jews are able to decide the fate of the Jewish nation. Just as only Americans have the right to vote on matters of US security, only Jews have a say in the policies and decisions of the Jewish people. As long as non-Jews are prepared to accept permanent residency status in Israel as opposed to citizenship, the Christians of Israel (and Muslims) will have every right to practice their religion freely without harrassment.
About sharia: We all here know that our problem with Islam is not that they evangelize peacefully and teach the world Allah's word but rather that they aim to missionize by the sword. I am simply saying that the 7 Noahide commandments will be spread around the world, and that anyone who is interested will be able to accept them, in the same what Christians spread their faith.
The 7 Noahide laws are :
Prohibition of Idolatry: - There is only one God. You shall not make for yourself an idol.
Prohibition of Murder: - You shall not murder.
Prohibition of Theft: - You shall not steal.
Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: - You shall not commit adultery.
Prohibition of Blasphemy: - Revere God and do not blaspheme.
Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: - Do not eat the flesh of an animal while it is still alive.
Requirement to have just Laws: - Create a court of justice and judge properly.

These are hardly anything that anyone could object to.
and how such words could be the ominous harbinger of a pogrom against the gentiles
Under Jewish, it is absolutely forbidden to kill or steal from gentiles so there is no fear of an anti-gentile pogrom.

Tosefta Bava Kamma 10:8
It is worse to steal from a gentile than from a Jew because of desecration of [G-d's] name.

Yankee Doodle said...

"As long as non-Jews are prepared to accept permanent residency status in Israel as opposed to citizenship, the Christians of Israel (and Muslims) will have every right to practice their religion freely without harrassment."

That's dhimmi status, or something very close to it, regardless of the name you call it. Such discrimination is wrong, pure and simple. I oppose this for the same reason I oppose Wahhabi hatred.

"Prohibition of Idolatry: - There is only one God. You shall not make for yourself an idol."

First of all, right there is an infringement on people's right to worship. Catholics are Christians, and many non-Catholics (and even some mistaken Catholics) believe Catholics worship the statues they have in their churches. As soon as this law got thusly interpreted and so enforced, the Catholics are one group of Christians who would be denied their beliefs.

What about other religions that have statues? Hinduism, Buddhism... would they also have dhimmi-type protection? If so, would it mean anything?

"Prohibition of Blasphemy: - Revere God and do not blaspheme."

Even God gives us the freedom to blaspheme, and we are not wiser than He.

People must have the freedom to seek their Creator in their own way, or to avoid Him, if they wish to try to do so. That is the only guarantee that, eventually, all will find Him. That is why God told us not to eat the fruit of the tree in the center of the garden, but still left it possible for us to do so.

I am no expert on the Jewish faith. Are there Jews who believe that it is inappropriate to write "God" and who rather write "G-d"? If so, why do they do that? Have there been Jews who believe, not that anyone who blasphemes the name of God should be put to death, but rather that anyone who pronounces the name of God should be put to death? Does that apply to writing the name of God as well? Would this rule some day be used by someone to demand your death and mine?

I do not doubt your good intentions, nor do I doubt your desire to implement your ideas peacefully.

What I doubt is humanity's wisdom and ability to implement ideas peacefully. Thus, I find it necessary to view proposals for government with a discriminating eye, in order to leave the devil less room to maneuver.

What I seek to preserve is our right to disagree, because I don't know everything, and neither do you. Only as long as we can disagree do we have the hope that, together, we may some day arrive at the Truth, and the Truth is where our Creator dwells.

Cheers, my friend! :)

Bar Kochba said...

My point was not to enforce by law the Noahide commandments. I don't believe in religious coercion. Jews and non-Jews should be free to choose their religious beliefs and we have no right to infringe upon that. What I was simply saying is that a Jewish Israel would encourage, in the same way that a Christian Evangelical group encourages, the world to accept the Noahide commandments.
What I mean by a Jewish Israel is not a theocratic Israel ruled by Jewish law but a state where the culture is Jewish, there is Jewish pride and respect for the Jewish lifestyle. Nobody should be forced to keep any sort of religious practice that they don't identify with. It is in such an environment of respect for Torah that the emes truth, will come out, not by coercion or by the swrod but by teaching. You have no need to fear for your rights.
P.S. Is it any more discriminatory for the Jewish state to limit political rights (at the national level as opposed to the communal level at which everyone will have a say) to Jews than for the US to limit voting rights to Americans or France to the French?

Goat said...

As a Christian I am probably closer to the Jews than I am many of our American Christian churches when it comes to Torahnic interpretation. The Holy Land is and should be Jewish by nature and as Christians we should support Israel as our mother country just as we would defend our own mothers. Christ was a Jew not a Christian. You could consider me like the eatly Christians wandering the desert after the Crucifixtion. I don't blame the Jews I blame ignorant pols, besides it was prophesied.

anticant said...

You religious people of all stripes are quite mad. You are well on the way to creating Hell on earth.

marallyn ben moshe said...

shavuah tov bar...tfu tfu tfu...let all of the sweet dogooders come live here for a couple of months...there is not reason to the madness...there is only madness...and God must have a plan...i don't particularly thing it is fair that He doesn't share it with me...since i am a player...sigh...great post...givemhell...stay safe my friend

Yankee Doodle said...

Bar Kochba,

"My point was not to enforce by law the Noahide commandments. [...] You have no need to fear for your rights."

Okay, fine. :)

"P.S. Is it any more discriminatory for the Jewish state to limit political rights (at the national level as opposed to the communal level at which everyone will have a say) to Jews than for the US to limit voting rights to Americans or France to the French?"

Here's where the problem is.

Any nation has the right to legally define who its citizens are, and to legally identify those who are enfranchised. Any people has the right to expect their laws to be abided by and enforced in areas subject to their jurisdiction.

However, the suspicion with which I would view a "Jewish Republic of Israel" where only people of the Jewish faith are enfranchised citizens, is not in principle very different from the suspicion with which I view militant Islamic republics.

Currently I support Israel, though not unconditionally. "[T]o limit political rights ... to Jews" is to dhimmify others; I am against it, and under such circumstances, I would find myself taking a far more pragmatic view of the situation. Just as I am not a supporter of the Islamic Republic of Iran or the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, just as I call for tough measures against the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, so would I be suspicious of such a government in such a "Jewish Republic of Israel" where only people of the Jewish faith were enfranchised citizens. Under such circumstances, I would consider supporting nations as the best interests of the United States dictated.


Anticant,

Bar Kochba and I disagree, but we aren't sending suicide bombers to each others' countries, and we aren't crashing hijacked airliners into each others' skyscrapers.

It's a point that you seem to miss.

And, until you and people like you get it, the West will continue to be a battlefield for all those rabid militants who commit crimes in the name of their god -- because you can't tell a murdering ruffian from an evangelizing servant of charity, be it the disciple who was sent, or the prophet who sent him.

You, Anticant, not Bar Kochba and not Yankee Doodle, are the one who is guilty of religious intolerance.


Cheers to all my friends, especially my old friend, Anticant, and my new friend, Bar Kochba. :)

Bar Kochba said...

There is a key difference between Israel and the US or Canada. The US or Canada were not founded to be homelands for any sort of people. Whether the majority of the population of those countries would be white, black, chinese or russian would make no difference as they are all Americans or Canadians. Israel, however, was founded to be a Jewish homeland, a term that becomes meaningless when non-Jews are allowed to decide its fate. The state of Israel was created for and exists only for the Jewish people and as such, non-Jews have no political rights there. It is up to the owners of the land- the Jews- to determine to who has a share in the nation.
Even today's sort of democracy in Israel is contradictory because no Zionist believes that the Arabs should peacefully be allowed to become to majority and change the state from Israel to Palestine.
In a previous post about Expulsion, I wrote:

We shouldn't find it surprising that the Arabs of Israeli are less than patriotic. The State speaks a different language, practices a different religion, has a different culture than the Arabs. Its independence day celebrates his defeat. Its enemies are his brothers. According to the Arab's history book, the Land was once his until the Jews stole it so it is wrong to expect him to be loyal to what he perceives as a colonialist state that has stolen his land. In this respect, I completely agree that it is simply moronic to demand that an Arab be proud of Israel. However, as a Jew and a Zionist, I know that this land is mine. I, however, repect the Arab enough to know that he will never leave what he perceives as his land. With that being said, the Arabs of Israel can never be loyal to what is to them an Infidel state and therefore must leave. This is neither wrong nor unprecedented. What is wrong would be to allow Jews and Arabs to continue to die because of the murderous Islamic terrorist attacks. By expelling them, there will be no more bloodshed and both sides will be able to carry on their lives unencumbered by each other. Expulsion of fifth columns is nothing new. The Germans of Poland and Czechoslovakia were expelled after WWII. Hundreds of thousands of Turks and Greeks took part in compulsory population transfers in 1923, thus ending decades of useless wars. The list goes on and on. Also, 9 000 Jews were expelled from their homes in Gaza over 2 years ago, at the behest of the world. Olmert and his self-loathing cohorts are planning (G-d forbid) to expel 100 000 Jews from Judea and Samaria. Those who can cheer for the expulsion of Jews from their homelands must answer as to why the expulsion of Arab traitors from Israel is wrong.

***

Here's the Zionist catch-22- and you answer it please:
Should the Arabs be allowed to peacefully become the majority in Israel and democratically change the state from Israel to Palestine?

anticant said...

As I repeatedly say, Yankee Doodle, I am intolerant of all intolerance that seeks to curb freedom of expression, worship, or lifestyles that do not harm others.

Most of such intolerance in the world today emanates from believers in the three Abrahamic religions.

No doubt we shall continue this discussion elseswhere, on your blog and mine - I don't want to trespass upon Bar Kochba's hospitality, but I did wish to make the point to him that I find his type of Zionist triumphalism as objectionable as I find Islamic militancy.

As for the violence and the fighting, no-one has clean hands - not the Arabs, not the Jews, and not the Americans.

All this violence would cease tomorrow if everyone concerned agreed that their God wished it.

anticant said...

PS I judge people by their actions - not by their words. There's precious little peace promotion emanating from any quarter in the Middle East right now.

All we get is the old school playground cries of "Yah, Boo, it's all YOUR fault!" "No, it isn't - it's all YOUR fault!" carried to lethal lengths.

The name of your game would seem to be Winner Takes All or Mutual Extermination. Crazy.

Bar Kochba said...

There's precious little peace promotion emanating from any quarter in the Middle East right now.
Peace promotion- Like when the Arabs, instead of accepting a state in'48, attacked Israel? Like when Arafat, may his name be accursed, responded to the Wye accords with violence? Or maybe when he aswered the Oslo accords which would have given the Palestinians a state, with suicide bombings? How he repayed Ehud Barak's offer to give up Gaza, 95% of Judea and Samaria and the Temple Mount, with the second intifada?
In 2005, Israel pulled out of Gaza. For at 2 years, there has been no 'Occupation' and yet the Arabs continue to rain rockets down on Sderot and Ashdod which are behind the 'Green Line'. They have not even attempted to improve their lives. Gaza is overflowing with sewage because the pipes have been used to make rockets! This is what type of society Israel is dealing with.
Israel has repeatedly extended the olive branch to the Arabs who have met it with violence. There is no equivalent to suicide bombings and raining kassams down on schools on the Israeli side. This is a uniquely Arab phenomenon.
PS Anticant: You are always free to drop by. You are in no way trespassing on my hospitality. Nothing gets me more excited than a good discussion about politics.
PPS For a good argument in favour of Expulsion, read here. I would really appreciate if you read this and then comment on it.

anticant said...

Thanks for your kind invitation, BK. I'll certainly look in from time to time, and maybe post a comment or two.

What we need far more urgently than a good discussion about politics is an honest discussion about the glaring failure of all religions to bring the peace which they each say their God desires for humanity to the suffering peoples of the world.

If you want more background on my own views, see the following posts in Anticant's Arena:

'Force for good?' [25 January]
'Unspoken fears' [9 February]
'Godswallop' [26 February]
'Reason, religion and reality' [14 March]

Yankee Doodle said...

"Israel, however, was founded to be a Jewish homeland, a term that becomes meaningless when non-Jews are allowed to decide its fate. The state of Israel was created for and exists only for the Jewish people and as such, non-Jews have no political rights there. It is up to the owners of the land- the Jews- to determine to who has a share in the nation."

Let me give that some thought.

"Should the Arabs be allowed to peacefully become the majority in Israel and democratically change the state from Israel to Palestine?"

Interesting question. I am a firm believer that immigration into the United States should be in accordance with applicable laws, and not illegal. That is not happening as well as it should.

The other issue raised is that of how the laws regarding immigration read. How do the laws read in Israel?

I am currently researching the impact of immigration on Sweden. There is definitely an issue here.

Interesting points you bring up.

Bar Kochba said...

Under Israeli law, any Jew (unfortunately, a Jew is not defined according to halakha but as anyone who has one Jewish grandparent. This has led to many thousands of Russian and Ethiopian goyyim immigrating to Israel, even many missionaries and neo-nazis!
But, you still haven't answered my question about Arabs becoming the majority, which is not necessarily a lunatic fear. For the moment, I have heard contradictory reports about the Arab population growing or shrinking. However, what is know is that many Arabs are very disloyal to the state, many Arab MKs have met with terrorists committed to Israel' destruction and many have participated in terrorist activities. I actually did a post about this a few days ago, so scroll down.

Yankee Doodle said...

Sorry about the delay getting back to you.

Disloyalty is another issue that needs to be legally defined.

Bush's view is that either you're with "us" or you're with "the terrorists" -- and, the US government doesn't torture, but it does now utilize "enhanced interrogation" techniques that sixty years ago were ruled, under US law, to be war crimes. The Bush Administration has now unilaterally decided, in clear violation of Constitutional law, to consider US citizens as enemy combatants, and to hold them incommunicado in military custody, even though the civilian judicial system is fully functioning and no parts of the US are currently in open insurrection against the federal government. Since I disagree with Bush, do I need to be waterboarded in a Navy brig?

The Khawarij terrorists have a mirror image viewpoint: either you're with them, or you're with the infidels.

So, in light of this, I'm suspicious of anyone who starts questioning people's loyalty. Again, it's an issue that either Bush or bin Laden could make great political capital out of.

If you are concerned about Arabs becoming the majority, then you tell me what you need to do.

I am not familiar with the demographic dynamic of Israel. Does Israel need to close its borders? I thought that was already done. Is this an issue about birthrates among different ethnic groups within Israel? Perhaps one ethnic group considers sex procreational, while another considers it recreational? Is that the issue?

That seems to be the case elsewhere in the world, and those places are now paying the price for all their recreation, facing subjugation at the hands of those who have been procreating.

Interesting how birth control could be made into a national security issue, isn't it? Use contraceptives, and you are an enemy of the state? What are the Noahide laws about birth control?

When you start questioning people's loyalty and infringing upon their rights in the name of national security, it is a game that can quickly get out of control.

And, let's not kid ourselves about this.

The road to Buchenwald is very much shorter than we may think, regardless of who is driving, or why.