tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post7404548579222810067..comments2023-11-03T05:51:16.392-07:00Comments on For Zion's Sake: Separation and RedemptionAvihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06156322358503174356noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-26626193668705467362008-04-10T15:51:00.000-07:002008-04-10T15:51:00.000-07:00If I do have to be changed I would like some sort ...If I do have to be changed I would like some sort of super power like moving things with my mind or flying with a super cape of some sort. Maybe laser beam eyes!!! ;)Papa Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03544402123543832168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-90249883546099281552008-04-09T22:57:00.000-07:002008-04-09T22:57:00.000-07:00Oh well...sorry for starting this argument. Once a...Oh well...sorry for starting this argument. Once again, we're divided. Tell me Kahaneloyalist, what good does calling Jason all those names do? Will it change him? Does he need to be changed?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-56658897713070599212008-04-09T22:19:00.000-07:002008-04-09T22:19:00.000-07:00Perhaps you are right...however, does she have the...Perhaps you are right...however, does she have the right to make an abstract judgement about my character on a public blog? How dare she declare that my judgement is clouded because a friend, (who happened to be a Christian), gave us money with no strings attached, from one friend to another! I will say this....in that terrible time of need, there were 6 people who helped us. Two were Jews. Four were Christians who we had never met. Not one person has ever suggested that I 'consider' Jesus..or come to a church. No mention of anything religious of any kind. A simple, "We would like to help."<BR/><BR/>Again, a heartfelt thank you to those who helped. My point is this:<BR/>It is possible to be friends with a non-Jew and still retain your Jewish identity. They don't have leperosy, and..at least Jason Frank and the others who helped us, have proven that they are loyal friends without an agenda.Yehudihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370713357407387725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-48351492979247437122008-04-09T21:48:00.000-07:002008-04-09T21:48:00.000-07:00But you are mistaken Yehudi, while a woman may not...But you are mistaken Yehudi, while a woman may not become a Rabbi never is it forbiden for her to learn and debate with the men.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-41756607659526206602008-04-09T20:37:00.000-07:002008-04-09T20:37:00.000-07:00Devash, I completely reject your last comment. How...Devash, I completely reject your last comment. How can you, even for a second, pretend to know me well enough to propose that my judgement is clouded, or that I have been "bought off?" I have no right to arbitrate? I more right than you, because you are a woman, and it is not your place to debate Torah among the men. How do you like hearing that? If you want to learn Torah, join the Sisterhood in your shul, or talk to your husband. Do not again suggest that I lack the character to render unbiased judgement.Yehudihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370713357407387725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-56829304971701908112008-04-09T15:19:00.000-07:002008-04-09T15:19:00.000-07:00Oh yeah -- I almost forgot. My soul is the very i...Oh yeah -- I almost forgot. My soul is the very image of my Creator as I was created in His image.Papa Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03544402123543832168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-21689169435207774712008-04-09T15:16:00.000-07:002008-04-09T15:16:00.000-07:00"rip Jews from Torah" ??? I guess you either can..."rip Jews from Torah" ??? I guess you either can't read or didn't read my last post. I believe the Torah to be completely and entirely true and the very words of God. I would encourage anyone and everyone to immerse themselves in Torah and in prayer in order to seek God.Papa Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03544402123543832168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-56840916169987782562008-04-09T14:31:00.000-07:002008-04-09T14:31:00.000-07:00Wrong Eitan, the Zealous are the righteous, never ...Wrong Eitan, the Zealous are the righteous, never forget Pinchas and his descendents were made Cohanim, they and not us or our ancestors, because they were zealous for Hashem. <BR/><BR/>Devash, good work, you got Frank to, yet again, expose himself as what he is. Pretty soon he will start rambling about the Chachamim being nests of vipers. Baruch Hashem, you remember the words of the Navi, the Notsrim are a broken cane they offer no support and prick the hand of he who leans upon them.(slightly rewritten for the current situation) The Torah and the Gemara are utterly clear on what is to be done to anyone who wishes to rip Jews from Torah especially when it is to accursed Avodah Zara. Throughout our history every Nostri who decided they were our friend took only one of 2 paths, eventually accepting Emet and abandoning Avodah Zara or hating the Jews with all their hearts. Do not forget that Martin Luther, yimach shmo vizichro, whose writings the entirely wicked Julius Streicher used as part of his defense at the Nuremberg trials, was initially a supporter of more liberal attitudes to the Jews. <BR/><BR/>Furthermore, Frank while your soul is, at least potentially, higher then a dog's it is indeed lesser then a Jew's.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-8670355216339642092008-04-09T06:21:00.000-07:002008-04-09T06:21:00.000-07:00devash -- neither a nor b is the answer that is th...devash -- neither a nor b is the answer that is the truth. The entire world is not black and white all the time. When it comes to me personally sharing my faith with people when asked about it I answer with many more questions than answers. Any "conversion" comes from God and not from man. If I were to convince someone to change they would have to have faith in me and so they would stumble when they saw me stumble. If they are convinced by God himself then their faith would be in Him and He never stumbles. My "job" is not conversion but to simply point people to God and allow God to be God. So the real answer would be that I would encourage them to immerse themselves in the Torah and prayer and ask God what He wants to teach them. God will show them what He wants to teach them because He is a good and loving God and knows how to give good gifts to those that seek Him. As a Christian or as a Jew it is not our job to make more of ourselves but to show people God and allow God to turn their heart towards Him.Papa Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03544402123543832168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-64433486538414736492008-04-09T04:59:00.000-07:002008-04-09T04:59:00.000-07:00Hey "devash"(should be dvash if anything), honey, ...Hey "devash"(should be dvash if anything), honey, you're way too zealous and your zeal is getting is blinding you. I'll probably be back in Israel soon, but here in America, Christianity is the main religion. This country has been so good as to offer people like us political exile and to help Israel. <BR/><BR/>Look, I realize just as well as you do that American/Christian aid comes at a price but I'd rather have American Christians on my side rather than the Islamofascist world. <BR/><BR/>Have <I>you</I> ever even been to Israel? Do <I>you</I> donate money to causes like Magen David Adom or a group like Yad Le'achim for that matter? We, as Jews, should first and foremost question ourselves and whether we're doing our utmost before questioning the intentions of Gentiles.<BR/><BR/>B.K. I think that in this case, it's your comments, especially quoting the "Saint" that are out of place and I mean absolutely no offense by that.<BR/><BR/>geula girl and Jason: I agree with you two, as strange as it sounds.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-62715782239711936552008-04-08T23:32:00.000-07:002008-04-08T23:32:00.000-07:00"Daniel" can't be the arbiter because he is biased..."Daniel" can't be the arbiter because he is biased. He's been bought off with a debt of obligation which is exactly what was intended and proves the original point.<BR/><BR/>The Frank Family said in answer to my simple question...<BR/>"I would do neither a or b..."<BR/><BR/>Please give a straight answer. Spell it out plainly. What are you afraid of? <BR/><BR/>It is a deceiver that plays word games and uses avoidance, changing the subject and becoming accusatory .Devorah Chayahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03625277197970920616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-8265234367040850602008-04-08T17:10:00.000-07:002008-04-08T17:10:00.000-07:00"yedda v'emet"...probably should be da'at v'emet"yedda v'emet"...probably should be <I>da'at v'emet</I>Yehudihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370713357407387725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-34694191539442405062008-04-08T17:05:00.000-07:002008-04-08T17:05:00.000-07:00There's no reason we can't all have civil conversa...There's no reason we can't all have civil conversation and even debate, as it is written, "as iron sharpens iron." Right?Yehudihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370713357407387725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-51988131731588461972008-04-08T16:50:00.000-07:002008-04-08T16:50:00.000-07:00Daniel -- finally!!! Someone who has taken the ti...Daniel -- finally!!! Someone who has taken the time to get to know me and my heart. Thank you for your words of kindness.Papa Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03544402123543832168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-1894570800747606582008-04-08T15:45:00.000-07:002008-04-08T15:45:00.000-07:00Ok guys...Devash, I love your zeal! I wish all Jew...Ok guys...<BR/>Devash, I love your zeal! I wish all Jews were as passionate about Am Yisrael v'haTorah as you are! I have known the Frank family for a long time, and I can say that they have no intention of converting anybody. Jason is literally a sponge for <I>yedda v'emet</I>. Obviously, the same cannot be said about other xtians...in fact, most. Jason is a friend to Israel and Jews, and shouldn't be seen as a threat or the enemy.<BR/><BR/>Jason, although your relationship with Hashem is individual and you are accountable for your own sin, G-d established a line of authority through Moshe to the Great assembly and on down the line through our rabbis of today. They are empowered to render judgement on matters of Torah and it is considered as though Hashem Himself has rendered the judgement. <BR/><BR/>There is absolutely no need to be combative. What does that accomplish? There is certainly a need to combat proselytizing by non-Jews and "messianics," but to be openly hostile towards others is counter-productive.Yehudihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370713357407387725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-27885844995274838602008-04-08T14:39:00.000-07:002008-04-08T14:39:00.000-07:00I would do neither a or b but that wouldn't matter...I would do neither a or b but that wouldn't matter to you because your mind is made up that we are all the same.Papa Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03544402123543832168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-6321153990423540092008-04-08T14:30:00.000-07:002008-04-08T14:30:00.000-07:00Back to square one. What would you advise a Jew w...Back to square one. What would you advise a Jew who told you he was thinking of converting to xianity?<BR/><BR/>a) Lead him in the Sinner's Prayer and then congratulate him on becoming a Completed Jew or,<BR/><BR/>b) Try to convince him to seek out a trusted rabbi for guidance and encourage him to remain true to the faith of his fathers.<BR/><BR/>A simple "a" or "b" answer will do.Devorah Chayahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03625277197970920616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-14974226954733702962008-04-08T14:03:00.000-07:002008-04-08T14:03:00.000-07:00I asked for understanding and only received condem...I asked for understanding and only received condemnation. I did not bash Jews. I have not put Judaism on trial. I have asked legitimate questions whose answers could lead to me learning and understanding more. I have not sought for anyone here to abandon Judaism or tried to "trick" anyone into not being a Jew. I have not pretended to be a Jew or ever displayed myself as anything but a gentile Christian. I never brought up the sacrifice of Jesus or the teaching work of the Holy Spirit only you spoke of these things. Whatever "christian" you are fighting or burning with anger against they are not here. Once again, the result of lumping all Christians together in their thinking and in their intentions. Why would I ask a Jew to be a Christian? That would be trading down. You don't understand my heart at all.Papa Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03544402123543832168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-70276610812141103522008-04-08T12:30:00.000-07:002008-04-08T12:30:00.000-07:00Funny how this started out as a condemnation of mi...Funny how this started out as a condemnation of missionary xianity's tactics against Jews and then xians come and hijack the discussion and turn it into a forum for bashing Jews about their (according to xianity) innate inability to understand Torah (lacking the "Holy Spirit") and to have a personal relationship with G-d (since we lack the J-man's sacrifice).<BR/><BR/>Every Jew knows the truth about this. There is no need to answer your questions. You have no right to ask them. Jews and Judaism are not on trial here. Furthermore, it is forbidden to teach Torah to gentiles except what they must know to follow the Seven Laws of Noah.<BR/><BR/>Being a light to the nations is not about Jews proselytizing xians anymore than it is about xians proselytizing non-xians. That's NT, not Torah.<BR/><BR/>When Am Yisrael is living in her own Land, according to Torah Law, she IS a light to the nations and a model society for humankind's example. It's <I>not</I> a mitzvah. It's a statement of fact.<BR/><BR/>The Frank Family is not going to learn anything here because everything they read comes out distorted through their xian worldview. <BR/><BR/>B'kitsur, the Frank Family and their ilk would convert a Jew to their false religion given any opportunity. They admitted as much. That makes them the enemy, according to Torah Law. Aside from that there is nothing left to talk about. I say again, Jews and Judaism are not on trial here or it shouldn't be allowed to be!Devorah Chayahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03625277197970920616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-54095742584223776602008-04-08T08:19:00.000-07:002008-04-08T08:19:00.000-07:00I AM searching for the truth of the matter. If yo...I AM searching for the truth of the matter. If you spent as much effort sharing what you know of Torah instead of demeaning those who seek to learn then you might be considered a light to the nations like other people I have encountered. My desire is to know more of God and to serve God and to dance in joy and praise before him even as David did. If my current beliefs are in error then I want to continue to be sifted by God.Papa Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03544402123543832168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-1249568355951181182008-04-08T07:57:00.000-07:002008-04-08T07:57:00.000-07:00So I guess you aren't going to answer any of these...So I guess you aren't going to answer any of these questions then? Many Jews complain that Jesus is seen as an intermediary between God and man and that there should be nothing between the two. How is this different than belief that Torah cannot be understood on your own but that there is a need to turn to a professional or an authority on Torah to instruct you how to walk with God? I understand that God made an everlasting covenant with His people. I do not believe that this covenant has changed or that this covenant has been replaced.Papa Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03544402123543832168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-88437614552434248012008-04-08T06:23:00.000-07:002008-04-08T06:23:00.000-07:00Our covenant with G-d is a legal document. From t...Our covenant with G-d is a legal document. From the time the Torah was given, we stood on line to consult with the greatest legal authority of the time for instruction in it. That was Moshe Rabbeinu. Then Moshe Rabbeinu delegated some of his authority to The Great Assembly and then we went to them and on down to the prophets and the rabbis who inherited that authority from them. I don't expect the Franks to understand any of this, because they aren't looking for the truth of the matter. They believe they already have it. You can see from what is written in the comments that he believes each individual is his own 'Torah' authority. What has been said about the rabbis applies equally to doctors and lawyers and engineers, too, but a wise person seeks out an expert when he needs professional advice. The trouble here is that the Jewish view of Torah and the xian view of Torah are widely disparate views. They hold <I>nothing</I> in common, but the xian imagines (erroneously)that his view is the correct one and that the Jew needs him to explain it to him. And never the twain shall meet.Devorah Chayahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03625277197970920616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-14240666642464597292008-04-08T05:50:00.000-07:002008-04-08T05:50:00.000-07:00Here is the question that burns within me. Who wo...Here is the question that burns within me. Who would you say is qualified to dispense answers? Do you look for answers yourself in the Torah or do you rely only on those you consider to be experts? Is not the law of the Lord for each person? Is it not written on our hearts? Does not God Himself instruct us through study and through nature? I do not think my knowledge to be surerior to that of a rabbi. I view rabbis just as I view everyone else - as individuals. Some rabbis are intelligent and have the best of intentions seeking to move the people that they encounter closer to God. Some rabbis serve their own pride. Some rabbis are good and some are bad. If all rabbis were one way then they would not disagree. In the end it is you or I that will give account. We stand or fall before God and God alone. Does God not want us to meet Him ourselves? Did He not walk with Adam in the garden? Does He want to be in communion with man? Did He not choose Abraham because of his faith and trust in God and not because of his knowledge or expertise?Papa Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03544402123543832168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-29125084139407820072008-04-08T05:18:00.000-07:002008-04-08T05:18:00.000-07:00devash -- I threw that out because it was previous...devash -- I threw that out because it was previously said by another person on this blog. Your lumping all Christians together reveals your nature.Papa Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03544402123543832168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7092397679011227919.post-67528596538553732452008-04-08T04:50:00.000-07:002008-04-08T04:50:00.000-07:00Franks~Interesting you would choose just that anal...Franks~<BR/><BR/>Interesting you would choose just that analogy since our sages liken Torah to water. What you don't seem to understand is that you are NOT equipped spiritually or mentally to dispense this "water." You do not seem to understand that you are not an expert who is qualified to "give answers." You don't even know what the questions are yet! But this is the way of xianity, everyone is his own posek.<BR/><BR/>This is why I said a true friend of the Jewish People who has his best interests at heart will advise him to seek out a Torah authority for his spiritual questions. If you were a righteous gentile, defined as one who observes the Seven Laws of Noah, you would also seek out a Torah authority for your own questions. But you would never dream of such a thing because you are already convinced that your 'knowledge' is vastly superior to any rabbi's.<BR/><BR/>If I say that a medical secretary has no business giving people medical advice since she is not a qualified medical doctor, does it follow that I am calling her a "dog?" This is an antisemitic canard based on a misreading of the NT. By throwing it out like this, you've revealed your true nature.Devorah Chayahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03625277197970920616noreply@blogger.com